Originally posted by mossrose
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The Flowers and the Wedding -- Just the FACTS, please
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The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo.
Sure you do. First, making a flower arrangement is not "participating in your wedding." But even if you think it is, all the person needs to do is stop making flower arrangements for weddings, and no one will object or have a problem. The person gets to adhere to their religious beliefs, and no discrimination is involved. Simple.
How would you like it if it were reversed? Pick any sort of purpose for an event you would refuse to participate in on principle - because that purpose violates your basic morality. then suppose supporting that sort of event targeting purposes within your moral convictions is a majority part of your business income. Then have the government say this sort of event with purpose X is legit and anyone that might happen to provide services to these events now forced to either participate when they have this purpose or no longer provide those services to any event with any purpose. Is that ok with you? Now you have to find something else to do to make a living. What if that is all you know how to do to make a living?
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIt would seem that there would be a great market for people who wanted to provide service to same-sex weddings and events. That's getting more and more in demand, but rather than somebody stepping up and meeting that need, the CHRISTIAN florist or baker must compromise their own convictions.
Christians, in their role of being salt and light, by taking a stand against sinful behaviour expose it for what it is, and so the world hates us and tries to force us to accept that behaviour.
It's going to get worse as time goes by.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNot really. Redefining wedding to include that which many people believe immoral, and then forcing people to do business with those new types of wedding or go out of business is tyranny. Weddings are big money makers for florists, so you are requiring them to compromise what are very core and basic moral convictions or likely go out of business.
How would you like it if it were reversed? Pick any sort of purpose for an event you would refuse to participate in on principle - because that purpose violates your basic morality. then suppose supporting that sort of event targeting purposes within your moral convictions is a majority part of your business income. Then have the government say this sort of event with purpose X is legit and anyone that might happen to provide services to these events now forced to either participate when they have this purpose or no longer provide those services to any event with any purpose. Is that ok with you? Now you have to find something else to do to make a living. What if that is all you know how to do to make a living?
Jim
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIf you were a baker, and somebody asked you to bake a cake with "[f bomb][N-word]", should you be obligated to comply? If somebody wanted you to create a cake depicting a naked heterosexual couple copulating, should you be forced to comply? Or would you simply give up your baking business?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Stop supplying for weddings, start supplying for "Biblical Marriages"? I wonder how that would sit with the press-gangers?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey already ARE. You just happen to agree with them at the moment.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBigotry is bigotry, Sparko. It's pretty easily identified. Religion is not a justifiable excuse. It wasn't for black people in the 1800s, the Jim Crow era, or the Civil Rights era. It wasn't for women in the suffragette era (and today), and it's not for the gay person or other members of the LGBTQ community today.
What if they decided to legalize incestual marriages? Would it be bigotry to be against making a cake for them? It isn't right now. Or how about marrying your car? or your dog? or pedophile marriages. If they legalized that would you be a bigot if you were against it and refused to make a cake or do flowers for that wedding?
You are only calling it bigotry because you don't think there is anything wrong with homosexuality. Well, we do.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYes.
Your ignorance of the wedding business is duly noted.
I actually oversee weddings as part of my livelihood, and I actually interact with florists. They don't just "make flower arrangements" - they spend quite a bit of time interacting with the couple, delivering the arrangements to the venue and setting them up, usually with candles and draperies and other accents.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI don't just "think" it is.
Or the couple could engage a DIFFERENT florist!
Yes, the couple can choose a DIFFERENT florist, and everybody can be happy!The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostYou do realize that doing wedding flowers is a HUGE portion of a florist's business, don't you?
Originally posted by mossrose View PostAre you really suggesting that a business owner refuse to sell flowers for ALL weddings in order to satisfy the selfishness of one or two people who can't possibly find a hundred other florists who would be happy to fill their needs?
Originally posted by mossrose View PostThat is absolute stupidity on your part to simply say "just stop doing wedding flowers".The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNot really. Redefining wedding to include that which many people believe immoral, and then forcing people to do business with those new types of wedding or go out of business is tyranny.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostWeddings are big money makers for florists, so you are requiring them to compromise what are very core and basic moral convictions or likely go out of business.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostHow would you like it if it were reversed?
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostPick any sort of purpose for an event you would refuse to participate in on principle - because that purpose violates your basic morality. then suppose supporting that sort of event targeting purposes within your moral convictions is a majority part of your business income. Then have the government say this sort of event with purpose X is legit and anyone that might happen to provide services to these events now forced to either participate when they have this purpose or no longer provide those services to any event with any purpose. Is that ok with you?
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNow you have to find something else to do to make a living. What if that is all you know how to do to make a living?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostStop supplying for weddings, start supplying for "Biblical Marriages"? I wonder how that would sit with the press-gangers?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt's not bigotry to be against a sexual act and not want to legitimize it by participating in a wedding based on it.
What if they decided to legalize incestual marriages? Would it be bigotry to be against making a cake for them? It isn't right now. Or how about marrying your car? or your dog? or pedophile marriages. If they legalized that would you be a bigot if you were against it and refused to make a cake or do flowers for that wedding?
You are only calling it bigotry because you don't think there is anything wrong with homosexuality. Well, we do.
That is the definition of bigotry. It is identical to telling two people they cannot be married because they aren't from a matching race.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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[QUOTE=Sparko;639823]It's not bigotry to be against a sexual act and not want to legitimize it by participating in a wedding based on it.
We've had this discussion before, and I disagree with you. You are discriminating against people because your bible says "if their genitals match, they can't make love." Making love - being intimate, is the act. You are holding it to be moral when done by two people with differing genitals, and immoral when done by people with matching genitals. It's not about the act - it's about who is doing it.
That is the definition of bigotry. It is identical to telling two people they cannot be married because they aren't from a matching race. You are linking morality to the genetic identify of the two people engaged in the act.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhat if they decided to legalize incestual marriages? Would it be bigotry to be against making a cake for them? It isn't right now.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostOr how about marrying your car?
Originally posted by Sparko View Postor your dog?
Originally posted by Sparko View Postor pedophile marriages.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf they legalized that would you be a bigot if you were against it and refused to make a cake or do flowers for that wedding?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou are only calling it bigotry because you don't think there is anything wrong with homosexuality. Well, we do.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-07-2019, 12:06 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNow there's an interesting thought. I actually have no problem with someone who starts a business to serve their particular religion - and only does business within the context of that religion. It would be the equivalent of someone who opens a bookstore that only stocks Christian books. There is no bigotry there - the business is focused on the religion. I can complain if you won't sell me a book because I am black or gay, but I cannot complain if you do not stock books about homosexuality or the black experience.
So if a florist advertised that they only provide flowers for Christian heterosexual weddings because of their faith, you'd be ok if a homosexual walked in and wanted flowers for a same-gender wedding and was turned away. Got it.
What if the homosexual made a stink about it?
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostSo if a florist advertised that they only provide flowers for Christian heterosexual weddings because of their faith, you'd be ok if a homosexual walked in and wanted flowers for a same-gender wedding and was turned away. Got it.
What if the homosexual made a stink about it?
Of course, things will get interesting when a gay couple that is a member of one of these Christian sects approaches them.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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