Originally posted by carpedm9587
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The Flowers and the Wedding -- Just the FACTS, please
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI'm not seeing a first amendment issue here, any more than the diner owner denying service to the black man in the Jim Crow era was a first amendment issue. Discrimination is discrimination, whatever it's justification.
Denying a person the right to refuse a contract to provide services is a different thing altogether - it is forced labour.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey are refusing to assist or participate in a gay wedding because of religious conviction.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat is their right by the first amendment.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThere is no biblical passages about not serving black people in restaurants. There are passages that homosexuality is a sin and that we are not to participate or celebrate sin.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostIf someone refused service to an intending customer in an ordinary commercial setting, I'd be inclined to agree. The intending customer who walks into a bakery and wants to buy what is on offer and gets refused service - that's one thing.
Denying a person the right to refuse a contract to provide services is a different thing altogether - it is forced labour.
And no one is "forcing" anyone to work. They can simply stop providing flowers for weddings and they will retain their alignment with their religion and avoid any form of discrimination. In other words, there is a path by which they can follow their conscience AND avoid discrimination. They cannot complain that they shouldn't be required to do so because it is "inconvenient."The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI frankly couldn't give a fig what the bible says.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - there is no forced labor involved. That's a canard. It is requiring that a business provide their service equitably and without discrimination. If I will provide flowers for your wedding because you are white, but I will not provide flowers for your wedding because you are black - that is discrimination. If I will provide flowers for your wedding because you are heterosexual, but I will not provide flowers for your wedding because you are homosexual, that is discrimination. It's no more complex than that.
And no one is "forcing" anyone to work. They can simply stop providing flowers for weddings and they will retain their alignment with their religion and avoid any form of discrimination. In other words, there is a path by which they can follow their conscience AND avoid discrimination. They cannot complain that they shouldn't be required to do so because it is "inconvenient."The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostReligion cannot be used as a smokescreen for bigotry.
I frankly couldn't give a fig what the bible says.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo the government can define anything as bigotry to get around the 1st amendment? Please.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat is clear. Luckily the 1st amendment says that the government can't interfere with my religious views or practices.
No "liberty" is ever 100%. There is always a balance. One person's freedoms end where another person's begin. There is always a need to balance. There are limits, even to religious liberty.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo "liberty" is ever 100%. There is always a balance. One person's freedoms end where another person's begin.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt is the outcome of your argument. If "bigotry" is a counter to the 1st amendment then the government just needs to define something as "bigotry" to stop anyone's religious views.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostBut that only works one way, in your world.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThe same-sex couple has the freedom to have their wedding and celebration, but I do not have the freedom not to participate in that.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIf they want ME to do their cake or flowers, their freedom is unlimited, but mine is not. Yeah, that's fair!The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo.
Sure you do. First, making a flower arrangement is not "participating in your wedding."
I actually oversee weddings as part of my livelihood, and I actually interact with florists. They don't just "make flower arrangements" - they spend quite a bit of time interacting with the couple, delivering the arrangements to the venue and setting them up, usually with candles and draperies and other accents.
But even if you think it is,
all the person needs to do is stop making flower arrangements for weddings, and no one will object or have a problem.
The person gets to adhere to their religious beliefs, and no discrimination is involved. Simple.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo.
Sure you do. First, making a flower arrangement is not "participating in your wedding." But even if you think it is, all the person needs to do is stop making flower arrangements for weddings, and no one will object or have a problem. The person gets to adhere to their religious beliefs, and no discrimination is involved. Simple.
See above. You offer a false dichotomy.
You do realize that doing wedding flowers is a HUGE portion of a florist's business, don't you? Are you really suggesting that a business owner refuse to sell flowers for ALL weddings in order to satisfy the selfishness of one or two people who can't possibly find a hundred other florists who would be happy to fill their needs?
That is absolute stupidity on your part to simply say "just stop doing wedding flowers".
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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