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The second amendment

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  • #46
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    firstfloor has bought the book. Clearly, you folks need an education; we will do this together - focusing on the argument connecting slavery to the second amendment. Let us pray for a common understanding of this important history.
    Again FF, the second amendment was not invented to control slaves, that some states wanted the militias to be a state function rather than a federal function does not change that fact. Besides militias were already state entities. But again, I want to know what this means: American citizenship, and warns that the Second Amendment, as it is currently exercised, guarantees that Black Americans will never be equal.

    How on earth does the second amendment prevent blacks from being equal in 2021? Be specific.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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    • #47
      For an actual historical view, worth the read: https://www.theroot.com/2nd-amendmen...-no-1790894965

      Hartmann implies that the Second Amendment was adopted (or at least written) to get Virginia's "vote" for ratification of the Constitution, which took place in July 1788. But this is not even remotely true. In 1788 the Second Amendment was not yet written and was not part of the debate over ratification of the Constitution...


      ...Thus, Hartmann's "conspiracy" falls flat because a conspiracy would require that the people allegedly involved talked to each other.

      This is not to say that slave patrols were not important to the South and slavery. They surely were. But the Second Amendment was directed solely at the federal government, which was prohibited from disarming state militias, and thus allowed the states to arm their militias if the federal government did not do so. Even if the amendment did not exist and the national government had abolished the state militias, the states would have been free to create their own slave patrols, just as they can create police departments and other law-enforcement agencies.

      Thus, the Second Amendment does not and was never intended to affect local law enforcement at all. It only prohibits the national government from disarming the state militias. The amendment had nothing to do with state police powers, which were the basis of slave patrols, and there was no federal interference with state criminal justice or policing until the 20th century. No one in 1789 would have imagined the national government interfering with state policing powers. However, the framers did imagine that the national government might help recover fugitive slaves, and Congress passed two laws, in 1793 and 1850, to do just that. But these laws supplemented powers of the states to hunt fugitive slaves.

      The slave patrols were emphatically not the militia. The militias had just fought in the Revolution. The states wanted to preserve their militias in case they had to defend themselves against a foreign power or against some president who became a tyrant. Thus the Second Amendment promised that the states could keep their well-regulated militias. (See a discussion of this in my article "A Well Regulated Militia.") Sometimes the militia acted as a slave patrol; sometimes militia service might include slave-patrol duty, but they were emphatically not the same thing.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • #48
        South Carolina formally merged the slave patrol and the militia in 1720.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

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        • #49
          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          South Carolina formally merged the slave patrol and the militia in 1720.
          And?

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            South Carolina formally merged the slave patrol and the militia in 1720.
            You don't get it FF, even if there were no militias there would still be slave patrols. The Second Amendment made no difference either way on that state law enforcement function.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #51
              “The Second Amendment was, thus, not some hallowed ground but rather a bribe, paid again with Black bodies. It was the result of Madison’s determination to salve Patrick Henry’s obsession about Virginia’s vulnerability to slave revolts, seduce enough anti-Federalists to get the Constitution ratified, and stifle the demonstrated willingness of the South to scuttle the United States if slavery were not protected.”

              — The Second: Race and Guns in a Fatally Unequal America by Carol Anderson
              https://amzn.eu/5W7o8sL
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by dirtfloor View Post
                “The Second Amendment was, thus, not some hallowed ground but rather a bribe, paid again with Black bodies. It was the result of Madison’s determination to salve Patrick Henry’s obsession about Virginia’s vulnerability to slave revolts, seduce enough anti-Federalists to get the Constitution ratified, and stifle the demonstrated willingness of the South to scuttle the United States if slavery were not protected.”

                — The Second: Race and Guns in a Fatally Unequal America by Carol Anderson
                https://amzn.eu/5W7o8sL
                Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #53
                  Anderson’s assertion about anti-blackness is completely repudiated by legal scholars and historians. Eugene Volokh, professor of law at the University of California, Los Angeles told The American Spectator that the Second Amendment’s roots in English law have “nothing to do with black/white relations.” He also pointed to the history of the Second Amendment, noting that much of the impetus behind it was rooted in northern states. “Black/white relations were far less central in those states than they were in the South,” said Volokh. Anderson’s narrative about the fundamentally racial nature of the Second Amendment never mentioned this legal background.

                  Legal historian and George Washington University professor Robert Cottrol also pushed back on Anderson’s theory of the Second Amendment’s racist roots. He referenced the amendment’s roots in England as well: “Were the English in 1689 thinking of anti-Blackness?” Cottrol noted that the right to keep and bear arms was never primarily an issue of race, but of freedom — a “counterpoint to a tyrannical government.”

                  Cottrol also noted the connection between the Second and the Fourteenth Amendment, “a product of the anti-slavery movement.” Its enumerated right to self-preservation is a critical problem for Anderson’s narrative of anti-blackness. Cottrol maintained sharp criticism of the ACLU’s “opportunistic” narrative on gun ownership and Anderson’s historical perspective:“this theory is totally wrong.”

                  With Anderson’s theories as to the legal history of the Second Amendment now highly dubious, the ACLU’s anti-gun narrative was next. The ACLU’s current idea of gun control under the guise of helping black Americans is also disputed by figures like Second Amendment advocate Maj Toure, who founded the nonprofit Black Guns Matter in 2016 to educate urban communities about the Second Amendment and responsible firearm use. Toure told The American Spectator that the Second Amendment’s supposed anti-blackness has “no historical basis.”

                  The firearms advocate said that current pushes for gun control are far more anti-black than the right to keep and bear arms: “How coincidentally, after millions of black people buy guns and train, you have one of the most archaic and racist gun control attempts at the federal level.” Toure pointed to “anti-gun zealot” David Chipman, Biden’s nominee for director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, as an example of the administration’s commitment to limit gun rights.

                  https://spectator.org/aclu-anti-gun-narrative/
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    “The Second Amendment was, thus, not some hallowed ground but rather a bribe, paid again with Black bodies. It was the result of Madison’s determination to salve Patrick Henry’s obsession about Virginia’s vulnerability to slave revolts, seduce enough anti-Federalists to get the Constitution ratified, and stifle the demonstrated willingness of the South to scuttle the United States if slavery were not protected.”

                    — The Second: Race and Guns in a Fatally Unequal America by Carol Anderson
                    https://amzn.eu/5W7o8sL
                    This is nonsense FF and you know it. The Second Amendment, and whether militias were state or federal, would have no effect on whether the states could control the slave population via slave patrols.

                    And why won't answer your claim:American citizenship, and warns that the Second Amendment, as it is currently exercised, guarantees that Black Americans will never be equal.

                    How on earth does the second amendment prevent blacks from being equal in 2021? Be specific.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      This is nonsense FF and you know it. The Second Amendment, and whether militias were state or federal, would have no effect on whether the states could control the slave population via slave patrols.

                      And why won't answer your claim:American citizenship, and warns that the Second Amendment, as it is currently exercised, guarantees that Black Americans will never be equal.

                      How on earth does the second amendment prevent blacks from being equal in 2021? Be specific.
                      Even if I didn't know that Carol Anderson is a racemongering piece of human excrement, just reading that excerpt he gave would have told me that: anytime I see someone use the phrase "black bodies" unironically, it's a clear indicator that they're a racemongering racist turd.
                      "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                      - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        This is nonsense FF and you know it. The Second Amendment, and whether militias were state or federal, would have no effect on whether the states could control the slave population via slave patrols.
                        Not true by Anderson’s account.

                        I suppose it is not surprising that the guns lobby take a different view, for political reasons.
                        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                        “not all there” - you know who you are

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

                          Not true by Anderson’s account.

                          I suppose it is not surprising that the guns lobby take a different view, for political reasons.


                          History takes a different view, for historically accurate reasons.

                          Don't you think it is telling that the only rejoinder you could provide was to merely say that Anderson disagrees? Where's the corroborating evidence? Just because Anderson says so?

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

                            Not true by Anderson’s account.

                            I suppose it is not surprising that the guns lobby take a different view, for political reasons.
                            It is bunk FF, the idea of the Second had nothing to do with slavery. And it would have made no difference with a state's ability to control slaves. Slave patrols would have went on with or without militias.

                            And why don't you deal with this claim? American citizenship, and warns that the Second Amendment, as it is currently exercised, guarantees that Black Americans will never be equal.

                            How on earth does the second amendment prevent blacks from being equal in 2021? Be specific.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by seer View Post

                              It is bunk FF, the idea of the Second had nothing to do with slavery. And it would have made no difference with a state's ability to control slaves. Slave patrols would have went on with or without militias.

                              And why don't you deal with this claim? American citizenship, and warns that the Second Amendment, as it is currently exercised, guarantees that Black Americans will never be equal.

                              How on earth does the second amendment prevent blacks from being equal in 2021? Be specific.
                              Again, if it were a motivating factor, not even the major one, for passing the 2A, we should see that being discussed in the various pamphlets and letters at the time.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

                                Not true by Anderson’s account.

                                I suppose it is not surprising that the guns lobby take a different view, for political reasons.
                                Again, Anderson is not a credible source. She's horrifically biased and in denial of basic history.
                                "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                                - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

                                Comment

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