I am surprised...

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Are you seriously arguing that the concentration camps the Nazis constructed in Poland were still operating in 1946?

I am not but I think your pal got confused. I referred to the Kielce pogrom and he seemed to think Poland was under German occupation in 1946.

[Cow Poke]

I am not but I think your pal got confused. I referred to the Kielce pogrom and he seemed to think Poland was under German occupation in 1946.

I was referring to the fact that you failed to mention any death camps IN Germany, and I didn't mention any date whatsoever, darlin.

[Cow Poke]

I am not but I think your pal got confused. I referred to the Kielce pogrom and he seemed to think Poland was under German occupation in 1946.

Here is what I said, to which you came up with the date 1946....

Last I checked, Auschwitz and Treblinka were in occupied Poland, and both were controlled by your people.
And I note you tried to divert attention away from Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Flossenburg and others in the so-called Greater German Reich.

No mention of a timespan at all --- simply exposing your dishonesty yet again by bringing up death camps NOT in Germany in your psychotic little attempt to deflect attention from the fact that these were operated by your Dear Leader and YOUR people.

You really are showing what a dishonest little you can be.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

deleted

[Cow Poke]

deleted

Probably something really stupid, so

Now, here is the exchange you grossly misrepresent (I think that's your spiritual gift )

The following textual examples via a great many intermediates sources and individuals over 1900 years led right to the gates of Auschwitz and Treblinka.

By your people, no?

By Christian countries.

Last I checked, Auschwitz and Treblinka were in occupied Poland, and both were controlled by your people.
And I note you tried to divert attention away from Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Flossenburg and others in the so-called Greater German Reich.

Anything there about 1946?
Anything there about the Kielce pogrom?

I await your apology.

[rogue06]

Unless he could press it to serve his own ends.

Exactly. Christianity was just something to distort as needed in order to better exploit it until its usefulness had been served.

[mossrose]

Deeper, deeper, down the rathole we go............

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Probably something really stupid, so

Now, here is the exchange you grossly misrepresent (I think that's your spiritual gift )

Last I checked, Auschwitz and Treblinka were in occupied Poland, and both were controlled by your people.
And I note you tried to divert attention away from Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Flossenburg and others in the so-called Greater German Reich.

Anything there about 1946?
Anything there about the Kielce pogrom?

I await your apology.

I am awaiting yours for your admission that you are duplicitous and engage in behaviour [i;e trolling] of which you accuse me.

[tabibito]

Exactly. Christianity was just something to distort as needed in order to better exploit it until its usefulness had been served.

H_A's observations are accurate enough within limits - the Church (and Western Society generally) was rife with anti Semitism. The fire had already been lit, so to speak, and Hitler only fanned the flames.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

In the ordinary course, Ioudaios referred to a native of Judaea (or at least someone who called Judaea home).

And where exactly is the first century source material to substantiate that contention?

Do you imagine Philo of Alexandria and his Alexandrian religious brethren did not consider themselves to be Jews? What about the Jews of various other Eastern Roman provinces? Or the Jews of the city of Rome?

[NorrinRadd]

Interesting - I've always known "errant" to be like somebody who lost their way, or was on a bad path.

I'd heard the old term, "knight errant," but never really pondered what it meant.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You have already demonstrated that aren't going to take seriously anything that I, or any other Christian, might post, and you declare/imply that almost anything that a Christian might have to say is peurile. Given that I respond to your posts, it should be obvious to you that I find your opinion of me to be a matter of profound insignificance.

I will take what you write seriously if you set aside your preconceived notions and critically examine the factual evidence contained within these NT texts.

No more than it would have amazed Paul.

Considering you present yourself as having some acquaintance with the Greek language might I suggest you go back to the original texts and examine the Greek terms that Paul actually employs.

When Paul's teaching was read through eyes trained to such philosophies as Stoicism, such misunderstandings are inevitable.

You appear to be contending that Paul's ideas arrived unannounced from out of the ether. He existed within the Hellenised world and would therefore most probably have had some acquaintance with philosophical concepts.

The religion originated in first century Judaea, not a particularly Hellenised corner of the world, except in a few minority quarters.

What developed in Judaea was a small Jewish Messianic sect not what you now consider to be “Christianity”. Jesus was not a Christian. He was an observant Jew. Moreover, Judaea [the Roman province as it existed in the first century] was considerably Hellenised. Greek would have been widely employed for the transaction of most official Jewish/Roman business, though Latin would have probably remained the authorised language employed in documents by the small Roman military force stationed in the province, directly under the Governor's command.

Galilee [from where Jesus originated] remained [except for cities such as Tiberias and Sepphoris] largely untouched by Greek influence, particularly in small towns and the countryside.

Paul, by his own account, conformed with the teachings of the Pharisees.

Do tell us all where in Pharisaic teaching there exists any concept of vicarious human oblation to atone for humankind’s sin? The Day of Atonement deals with that in Judaism.

What Paul was teaching were his own religious concepts not the original Jewish eschatological and ethical teachings of Jesus of Nazareth

That teaching was intransigently opposed to Hellenisation. His own writings show how thoroughly he opposed synchretism, whether from Jew or Gentile.

This is not at all surprising. As the leader of a new clandestine religious cult he held his “gospel” to be the only valid one. However, the context of Paul's religious concepts remain deeply rooted within the prevailing contemporary Hellenistic/Roman milieu. Such notions were [and still are] quite alien to the teachings of Jesus.

That is an implicit claim that my religion is based on the teachings of the fourth Century church.

Well unless you are a subordinationist or a Unitarian what else is your religion based upon? Do you reject the Trinity?

My response is not a deflection - it addresses the false claim. The teachings of the fourth century church are relevant only to the extent that they can be verified by scripture.

There exist no complete MSS of Christian texts prior to the fourth century. We have fragments often excavated from rubbish tips or found later being used as palimpsests. The earliest recorded date we have for the NT canon as we now have it is from Athanasius' Festal Letter of 367 CE

A substantial proportion of those teachings are in fact refuted by scripture.

Which particular fourth century teachings do you consider are not based on scripture?: Please be specific.

Beginning with Kitamori and Moltmann, that claim has gained enough ground to have become a minority

What claim? And what bearing do the theological formulations of two 20^th theologians have to the examination of fourth century Christian doctrines? I am dealing with history not 20^th century theological speculations.

You really believe there is a connection?

No I do not. However, there are historical and comparative parallels.

When those correlations are examined, they are found to be not causations. Superficial similarities, but the details are radically different.

I would contend that the quest for personal immortality has a quite long history. Our earliest recorded literary sources are from the ancient near east.

Celibate monasticism never enjoyed a widespread popularity in the early Churches.

Are you referring to Anchorites or Cenobites? There was rudimentary monasticism in Egypt from the third century. And let us not forget the stylites.

Augustine? Suddenly a fourth/fifth century theologian is relevant to a discussion of what Paul himself wrote and meant? Augustine was one of those who claimed that deeper theological matters could not be resolved on the basis of scripture, and much of his theology was rejected by the Eastern Churches

I was not referring to Augustine when I referenced Jovinian's better known contemporary, I was referring to Jerome.

Nor the male come to that - your interpretation of the text is governed by your prejudice. ; - lustful passion - in context, is a matter of taking what one wants without regard for anyone else.

It is apparent from his writings that Paul had a self-evident aversion to sexual matters and regarded passion in any form [and particularly with regard sex] with opprobrium. This has parallels with the teachings of the Stoics and their belief that all emotions, appetites, and desires should be firmly controlled with desire and passion in all their forms, banished..

I expect to find precisely that which is found. It did come as a shock when I first realised what it was saying, but after a day or so of reflection, it found that it should have been expected on the basis of the New Testament record.

What has Song of Songs to do with the “New Testament record”? I am not aware of any erotic poetry being contained in the New Testament canon. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Agreed times to not have sex. Set times for fasting, so to speak, leaves open any other time for eating or not eating according to the person's (or in this case, the couple's) wishes. You read Paul's writing through a lens that won't allow you to see his intent.

That verse strikes me as sex by timetable which ensures any desire or passion is excluded. You may be in the mood now but you have to wait until after prayers tomorrow night by which point the mood will have passed and the activity ends as a routine chore that has to be done by prior arrangement.

Interpretation is involved in any communication, whether written or verbal, or simply by signal. There is more difficulty when translations are involved, but a hostile or overly sympathetic reading will guarantee a flawed interpretation even when the writing is in the reader's mother tongue.

We are discussing texts written nearly 2000 years ago and which most Christians [certainly on this board] read in a variety of translations. We can only discern in the Greek what Paul means by the language he employs. Anything else is vacuous speculation.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I'd heard the old term, "knight errant," but never really pondered what it meant.

Some it appears have never read [?heard of?] Spencer, Cervantes, or de Troyes.

Although anyone familiar with Python's Holy Grail movie would surely have some idea.

[tabibito]

I will take what you write seriously if you set aside your preconceived notions and critically examine the factual evidence contained within these NT texts.

You have a wealth of bare assertion to back that claim and nothing more.

Considering you present yourself as having some acquaintance with the Greek language might I suggest you go back to the original texts and examine the Greek terms that Paul actually employs.

Do you want me to read the Bible the same way that people (who have the express intention of discrediting everything in the Bible) want me to? Not going to happen.
Paul wrote a couple of millennia ago in Koine Greek, and you insist on imposing modern English definitions on what he wrote, with the most unfavourable nuances that you can devise.

[rogue06]

Deeper, deeper, down the rathole we go............

And where it stops... nobody knows...........


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