Ashli Babbitt’s Mom Speaks

[Reepicheep]

Ah.... Trump gave the order for the Capital Police to suck at their job, eh?

Do you think, if there was even a SHRED of evidence of that, that you would have to be asking instead of telling?

That, sir, would be major headlines, and the Democrats wouldn't have to keep trying to breathe life into the outright lie that "a Capitol Police Officer was bludgeoned to death by a fire extinguisher".

If, as you claim, the January 6th riot was a "colossal failure of the White House to plan for problems they KNEW were coming", and if Trump was president at the time, then doesn't it logically follow that Trump was responsible for the riot?

[Stoic]

THANKS, Reepie, for bringing this to our attention. I don't think you realize that what it actually shows is the colossal failure of the White House to plan for problems they KNEW were coming --- and the failure was so egregious that it almost HAS to be on purpose.

Did you mean to say something other than "White House"?

[Cow Poke]

Did you mean to say something other than "White House"?

Yes, sir... the Capitol Police DEFENDING the Capitol. Thanks.

[Cow Poke]

If, as you claim, the January 6th riot was a "colossal failure of the White House to plan for problems they KNEW were coming", and if Trump was president at the time, then doesn't it logically follow that Trump was responsible for the riot?

If that was what I meant, then, yeah. I goofed. Clearly meant the Capitol Police.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Today I stumbled across an excellent 40 minute documentary, produced by the New York Times, about the January 6th attack on the Capitol Building. It was released on July 1, and took six months of investigation to produce. They analyzed thousands of videos and produced a very detailed timeline of what happened when.

The events leading up to the death of Ashli Babbitt are succinctly covered in the 3 minutes from 25m 30s to 28m 30s.

It is impossible to watch this video and conclude that the protesters were peaceful.

And there you have it. However, at present there is so much polarisation among certain sections of American society that for many they cannot [or refuse] to acknowledge that there are factions in their country that are far from either peaceful or democratic and that Trump played to those factions as well as to the prejudices of credulous citizens who hold some of those undemocratic views. I suspect that for many when they hear references to the people they think only of a particular section of the US population.

As you and I are both outsiders we perhaps share a more objective view of the last few years in American society because we are not part of it but have observed it all from a distance.

The politics of eternity and what Timothy Snyder has termed sado-populism are becoming ever more apparent, and not just in the USA. I fear it will not end well.

[NorrinRadd]

ND RINO Senator Cramer praises Ashli's shooter.

[rogue06]

And there you have it. However, at present there is so much polarisation among certain sections of American society that for many they cannot [or refuse] to acknowledge that there are factions in their country that are far from either peaceful or democratic and that Trump played to those factions as well as to the prejudices of credulous citizens who hold some of those undemocratic views. I suspect that for many when they hear references to the people they think only of a particular section of the US population.

As you and I are both outsiders we perhaps share a more objective view of the last few years in American society because we are not part of it but have observed it all from a distance.

The politics of eternity and what Timothy Snyder has termed sado-populism are becoming ever more apparent, and not just in the USA. I fear it will not end well.

You didn't even watch the video did you? You again did your usual shtick of of commenting on something that you never bothered to watch or read. .

[CivilDiscourse]

As you and I are both outsiders we perhaps share a more objective view of the last few years in American society because we are not part of it but have observed it all from a distance.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

But that's OK, because 'we understand their angst'.

I think the fact that you and several other contributors are overlooking is that the BLM protests of 2020 were premised on perceived actual police brutality. A man, regardless of his petty criminal background, died because of the actions of a police officer. The proverb concerning the straw and the camel's back comes to mind as this was not an isolated incident but what was considered by many to be yet another example of individual officers using unnecessary excessive [and often lethal] force towards people of colour.

The 6 January incident in Washington occurred because of conspiracy theories, lies, provocative language, and false accusations repeatedly made either by Trump and/or his fellow-travellers.

There is a difference.

Engaging in whataboutism, namely the contention that "Did our side do something wrong? Well your side did something wrong as well" is a fallacious argument. Indulging in finger pointing and name calling also prevents the underlying and more serious issues being addressed.

Violence and the destruction of property should not be condoned but sometimes [as in the American Revolution] they may be considered justified in order to achieve a greater goal [justice, freedom etc].

Furthermore, and contrary to the beliefs of many it appears that virtually all of the BLM protests were peaceful [see report by ACLED https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/dem...-summer-2020/].

However, that report also notes:

"Yet, despite data indicating that demonstrations associated with the BLM movement are overwhelmingly peaceful, one recent poll suggested that 42% of respondents believe “most protesters [associated with the BLM movement] are trying to incite violence or destroy property” (FiveThirtyEight, 5 June 2020). This is in line with the Civiqs tracking poll which finds that “net approval for the Black Lives Matter movement peaked back on June 3 [the week following the killing of George Floyd when riots first began to be reported] and has fallen sharply since” (USA Today, 31 August 2020; Civiqs, 29 August 2020).

There were also reports of agent-provacateurs:

Despite the media focus on looting and vandalism, however, there is little evidence to suggest that demonstrators have engaged in widespread violence. In some cases where demonstrations did turn violent, there are reports of agents provocateurs — or infiltrators — instigating the violence. During a demonstration on 27 May in Minneapolis, for example, a man with an umbrella — dubbed the ‘umbrella man’ by the media and later identified as a member of the Hells Angels linked to the Aryan Cowboys, a white supremacist prison and street gang — was seen smashing store windows (Forbes, 30 May 2020; KSTP, 28 July 2020). It was one of the first reports of destructive activity that day, and it “created an atmosphere of hostility and tension” that helped spark an outbreak of looting following initially peaceful protests, according to police investigators, who believe the man “wanted to sow discord and racial unrest” (New York Times, 28 July 2020). In another example on 29 May in Detroit, a number of non-residents reportedly traveled to the city to engage in violent behavior during a demonstration, leading to multiple arrests (MLive, 2 June 2020).

The report also notes

The initial government response to the demonstrations was not uniform. Many early protests were held peacefully and without incident. In certain cities, like Los Angeles, California and Camden, New Jersey, authorities even expressed support by joining marches, taking a knee, or attending community meetings on reform (ABC7, 1 June 2020; CBS8, 15 June 2020; NJ Spotlight, 12 June 2020). In some cases these efforts reduced tensions between the community and the police, while in others demonstrators raised concerns that these displays served more as “PR stunts” than genuine acts of solidarity, potentially obscuring the scope of police abuse (ABC, 6 June 2020). At the start of June, for example, while some police officers kneeled with demonstrators in Buffalo, New York, separate reports surfaced showing the city’s police violently pushing an elderly protester to the ground, fracturing his skull, the next day (ABC, 6 June 2020; NPR, 30 June 2020).

Overall, ACLED data indicate that government forces soon took a heavy-handed approach to the growing protest movement. In demonstrations where authorities are present, they use force more often than not. Data show that they have disproportionately used force while intervening in demonstrations associated with the BLM movement, relative to other types of demonstrations.

It is these perceptions that lead to further polarisation among sections of the population. If Americans are going to learn anything from the events of the last eighteen months then many are going to have to take a long and hard look at the culture of prejudice that exists within the USA [and which has existed for a long time] and consider how it might be addressed and, hopefully, rectified.

However, there are factions that do not want to recognise those problems and prefer to offer easy solutions that appeal to perceived injustices [e.g. the notion that whites are an oppressed section of society] and to a fictitious past when for every citizen the USA was "great".

[CivilDiscourse]

I think the fact that you and several other contributors are overlooking is that the BLM protests of 2020 were premised on perceived actual police brutality. A man, regardless of his petty criminal background, died because of the actions of a police officer. The proverb concerning the straw and the camel's back comes to mind as this was not an isolated incident but what was considered by many to be yet another example of individual officers using unnecessary excessive [and often lethal] force towards people of colour.

The 6 January incident in Washington occurred because of conspiracy theories, lies, provocative language, and false accusations repeatedly made either by Trump and/or his fellow-travellers.

There is a difference.

Engaging in whataboutism, namely the contention that "Did our side do something wrong? Well your side did something wrong as well" is a fallacious argument. Indulging in finger pointing and name calling also prevents the underlying and more serious issues being addressed.

Violence and the destruction of property should not be condoned but sometimes [as in the American Revolution] they may be considered justified in order to achieve a greater goal [justice, freedom etc].

Furthermore, and contrary to the beliefs of many it appears that virtually all of the BLM protests were peaceful [see report by ACLED https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/dem...-summer-2020/].

ACLED's counting method muddy's the water, I would say:

Source: https://www.acleddata.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/ACLED_Codebook_2019FINAL_pbl.pdf

Demonstrations – a group of three or more individuals – are only coded when they are directed against a policy, an institution, an individual, or other events and agents. Under these terms, political or party rallies, town hall meetings, and caucuses are not coded as ‘demonstrations,’ as they reflect regular political activity by members of political organizations, civil society, and the general public. Similarly, vigils that are not intended to manifest any protest message do not fulfil ACLED’s requirements for inclusion.

© Copyright Original Source

Treating every group of 3+ people, in any size town as the denominator when you calculate % of violent protests will create a low number. Using that same criteria, pro-trump protests would also have been "virtually all peaceful".

The more important # would be something like Protests of <X>+ people in towns/cities with a population of at least <y>. This would capture the significant protests instead of watering down the number with minor protests.

[Cow Poke]

And there you have it. However, at present there is so much polarisation among certain sections of American society....

While things in your own country are running so swimmingly well that you have to poke your nose and your OWN polarization into OUR country.

[Cow Poke]

I think the fact that you and several other contributors are overlooking is that the BLM protests of 2020 were premised on perceived actual police brutality.

Absolutely not. NONE of us have defended George Floyd's killer - we have ALL said we see no justification whatsoever for what he did. That does NOT justify looting, burning, destroying... they even burned THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS and destroyed the very stores (and the lives of shopkeepers) in THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS!

We don't need to be lectured by some knowed-up self-righteous bitty from the other side of the pond.

And, gee... "perceived actual"? In MANY cases, it was ACTUAL police brutality.

support police and protesters.jpg

[Cow Poke]

You didn't even watch the video did you? You again did your usual shtick of of commenting on something that you never bothered to watch or read. .

She must live a miserable pitiful little life.

[Cow Poke]

....We don't need to be lectured by some knowed-up self-righteous bitty from the other side of the pond....

"biddy" (My sincere apologies to my dear friend, mossy, who tries so hard to keep me straight )

[rogue06]

I think the fact that you and several other contributors are overlooking is that the BLM protests of 2020 were premised on perceived actual police brutality. A man, regardless of his petty criminal background, died because of the actions of a police officer. The proverb concerning the straw and the camel's back comes to mind as this was not an isolated incident but what was considered by many to be yet another example of individual officers using unnecessary excessive [and often lethal] force towards people of colour.

The 6 January incident in Washington occurred because of conspiracy theories, lies, provocative language, and false accusations repeatedly made either by Trump and/or his fellow-travellers.

There is a difference.

Engaging in whataboutism, namely the contention that "Did our side do something wrong? Well your side did something wrong as well" is a fallacious argument. Indulging in finger pointing and name calling also prevents the underlying and more serious issues being addressed.

Violence and the destruction of property should not be condoned but sometimes [as in the American Revolution] they may be considered justified in order to achieve a greater goal [justice, freedom etc].

Furthermore, and contrary to the beliefs of many it appears that virtually all of the BLM protests were peaceful [see report by ACLED https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/dem...-summer-2020/].

However, that report also notes:

"Yet, despite data indicating that demonstrations associated with the BLM movement are overwhelmingly peaceful, one recent poll suggested that 42% of respondents believe “most protesters [associated with the BLM movement] are trying to incite violence or destroy property” (FiveThirtyEight, 5 June 2020). This is in line with the Civiqs tracking poll which finds that “net approval for the Black Lives Matter movement peaked back on June 3 [the week following the killing of George Floyd when riots first began to be reported] and has fallen sharply since” (USA Today, 31 August 2020; Civiqs, 29 August 2020).

There were also reports of agent-provacateurs:

Despite the media focus on looting and vandalism, however, there is little evidence to suggest that demonstrators have engaged in widespread violence. In some cases where demonstrations did turn violent, there are reports of agents provocateurs — or infiltrators — instigating the violence. During a demonstration on 27 May in Minneapolis, for example, a man with an umbrella — dubbed the ‘umbrella man’ by the media and later identified as a member of the Hells Angels linked to the Aryan Cowboys, a white supremacist prison and street gang — was seen smashing store windows (Forbes, 30 May 2020; KSTP, 28 July 2020). It was one of the first reports of destructive activity that day, and it “created an atmosphere of hostility and tension” that helped spark an outbreak of looting following initially peaceful protests, according to police investigators, who believe the man “wanted to sow discord and racial unrest” (New York Times, 28 July 2020). In another example on 29 May in Detroit, a number of non-residents reportedly traveled to the city to engage in violent behavior during a demonstration, leading to multiple arrests (MLive, 2 June 2020).

The report also notes

The initial government response to the demonstrations was not uniform. Many early protests were held peacefully and without incident. In certain cities, like Los Angeles, California and Camden, New Jersey, authorities even expressed support by joining marches, taking a knee, or attending community meetings on reform (ABC7, 1 June 2020; CBS8, 15 June 2020; NJ Spotlight, 12 June 2020). In some cases these efforts reduced tensions between the community and the police, while in others demonstrators raised concerns that these displays served more as “PR stunts” than genuine acts of solidarity, potentially obscuring the scope of police abuse (ABC, 6 June 2020). At the start of June, for example, while some police officers kneeled with demonstrators in Buffalo, New York, separate reports surfaced showing the city’s police violently pushing an elderly protester to the ground, fracturing his skull, the next day (ABC, 6 June 2020; NPR, 30 June 2020).

Overall, ACLED data indicate that government forces soon took a heavy-handed approach to the growing protest movement. In demonstrations where authorities are present, they use force more often than not. Data show that they have disproportionately used force while intervening in demonstrations associated with the BLM movement, relative to other types of demonstrations.

It is these perceptions that lead to further polarisation among sections of the population. If Americans are going to learn anything from the events of the last eighteen months then many are going to have to take a long and hard look at the culture of prejudice that exists within the USA [and which has existed for a long time] and consider how it might be addressed and, hopefully, rectified.

However, there are factions that do not want to recognise those problems and prefer to offer easy solutions that appeal to perceived injustices [e.g. the notion that whites are an oppressed section of society] and to a fictitious past when for every citizen the USA was "great".

Funny how those few who ended up getting arrested for violent activity or inciting violence (only to have Democrat DAs dismiss the charges and let them off scot free), all seemed to be affiliated with either antifa, BLM or some other radical leftwing group.

The whole agent provocateur narrative appears to have arose from stories that members of a group (their name escapes me) were out causing trouble in Minneapolis. They were labelled "white supremacists" by the MSM. But just like how their repeatedly calling the Proud Boys a "white supremacist" group (led by someone of African-Hispanic ancestry, with a membership including a significant number of blacks and Hispanics) was blatantly false, this group is actually comprised of several factions -- including both right and left wing ones. Guess which ones were out rioting?