The Blue Wall of Silence Is Starting to Crack

[rogue06]

Keep a look out for Grey Brother.

Yet another great story most people only know through the Disney-ified version

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

No.

Keep a look out for Grey Brother.

[rogue06]

I am simply trying to get Cow Poke...

No.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Your "point" is crystal clear for everyone to see.

I am simply trying to get Cow Poke - our resident with alleged experience of the police to explain how an association within his own local police department works. For some reason he is being very coy about answering those specific questions.

I am also pointing out that simply transferring power from one side to the other, without adequate checks and balances, does not remove the risk of corruption. That simple fact seems to have been missed.

As Sparko noted his honest cop brother was at the mercy of a corrupt chief "and his buddies" who attempted "to get rid of" him [mercifully for Sparko's brother and his relatives that was not a euphemism].

Furthermore those corrupt officials had the assistance of "the county DA".

No police union was involved in that particular corruption scandal.

[rogue06]

The point I am making is

Your "point" is crystal clear for everyone to see.

obvious troll.jpg

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

or your inability to comprehend that I actually HAVE answered your questions.

You have not answered my questions pertaining to the "police association" within your own local police department and so I will put them to you yet again .

Is this police association that exists within your police department similar to a union?

That is:

Is it financed by its members?
Does it have a legally binding constitution?
Do its members have an input into the appointment of officials/representatives?

If not:

Who runs it?
Who works in it?
Who pays for it?
What services does it provide for officers?

Now can you answer those questions or not?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Well, that would be a first.



or your inability to comprehend that I actually HAVE answered your questions.



You're certainly entitled to think that, but the MAJOR part that you can't seem to comprehend is COLLLECTIVE BARGANING of a LABOR UNION being the answer.

LABOR UNIONS protect their DUES PAYERS, pretty much at any cost.
Police Associations do not.

I even tried explaining how LABOR UNIONS work in this regard, and even ABSENT a "Police Association", the fact that there is not a LABOR UNION is, in and of itself, fundamental.

I can - but trying to explain that to you when you can't even grasp the significance of NOT having LABOR UNIONS was laborious enough.

See my reply to you at post #153.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Either you are amazingly ignorant or simply dishonest. That was NOT the totality of the situation

Let us [to use a phrase] "cut to the chase". In your proposed suggestion where the power is removed from the unions and placed with the Police Chief as well as with local representatives and/or politicians:

1. What systems would you establish for police officers to raise concerns [without fear of intimidation and/or harassment] about their fellow officers, regardless of rank?
2. To what organisation/authority would they address those concerns?
3. What systems would you establish to ensure bullying and intimidation were reduced?
4. What systems/procedures would you put in place for local government/council employees to raise concerns about elected representatives including [as with Sparko's brother's experience] the DA and other figures in the local judiciary?
5. And lastly what policies do you consider could be introduced to reduce the influence of organised crime?

Of course we all know that corruption can never be entirely eliminated from within police forces [or indeed any powerful and hierarchical organisation] but surely US society needs to ensure that insofar as it is humanly possible it is inhibited, deterred, thwarted, and prevented among those authorised To Protect and To Serve.

Hence the question posed at the end of my OP: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

My mistake. I didn't know that you were expecting a perfect, flawless solution. One that will work in every case regardless of circumstances 100% of the time. Just like we commonly have with nearly every endeavor we encounter in our daily lives.

I said that such a move would "make a tremendous difference," not that it was a panacea frau dummkopf.

The point I am making is that merely transferring power to the [for want of a better word] "management" does not in, and of itself, remove the risk of corruption, as the incident related by Sparko demonstrates.

There have to be checks and balances. Cow Poke has yet to put forward his suggestions for such measures.

[rogue06]

chicken-playing-chicken-mike-savad.jpg

[Cow Poke]

The suggestion by Cow Poke to remove power from unions and give it to command does not rule out corruption.

Either you are amazingly ignorant or simply dishonest. That was NOT the totality of the situation, and I knew that trying to explain it to someone of your ilk might be about as successful as teaching a chicken to play poker.

I went through the whole thing, which you either ignored or were too stupid to understand --- "command" is answerable to the mayor, and the mayor is answerable to the people who elected him/her. If the people elect a corrupt mayor and city council, then they get the government they deserve. Corruption is their own problem.

There have to be checks and balances in place. However, it appears that CowPoke has not thought through his suggestion and considered what those should be or how they might be implemented.

I actually explained it in detail, so you're either incredibly ignorant or an outright liar.

[Cow Poke]

Why can you not answer those simple questions about the police association within your own police department?

I can - but trying to explain that to you when you can't even grasp the significance of NOT having LABOR UNIONS was laborious enough.

[Cow Poke]

I am beginning to think

Well, that would be a first.

that your inability to answer my questions

or your inability to comprehend that I actually HAVE answered your questions.

relating to the organisation, financing, operation, and staffing of a "police association" within your own police department "which very much protects the interests of honest cops, but makes it very clear that it does NOT protect bad apples." is nothing but bluster and in reality your involvement with your local police authority is at a very basic [civilian] level.

You're certainly entitled to think that, but the MAJOR part that you can't seem to comprehend is COLLLECTIVE BARGANING of a LABOR UNION being the answer.

LABOR UNIONS protect their DUES PAYERS, pretty much at any cost.
Police Associations do not.

I even tried explaining how LABOR UNIONS work in this regard, and even ABSENT a "Police Association", the fact that there is not a LABOR UNION is, in and of itself, fundamental.

[rogue06]

How would taking the power away from a union [had one existed in that situation] and giving it to command have assisted the brother of Sparko?


From his post "My brother was in just a situation as HA described. The Police chief [i.e. command] and his buddies were crooks and my brother, a "line officer" at the time didn't go along with their shenanigans. So they took it upon themselves to get rid of my brother, with the help of the county DA who was also a buddy of the chiefs". [My emphasis and inserted comments]

In point of fact Sparko has offered a real life example of precisely the kind of entrenched corruption among the upper echelons of the police force and other local individuals [in his brother's case the DA] that I have suggested can [and do] occur.

The suggestion by Cow Poke to remove power from unions and give it to command does not rule out corruption. There have to be checks and balances in place. However, it appears that CowPoke has not thought through his suggestion and considered what those should be or how they might be implemented.

My mistake. I didn't know that you were expecting a perfect, flawless solution. One that will work in every case regardless of circumstances 100% of the time. Just like we commonly have with nearly every endeavor we encounter in our daily lives.

I said that such a move would "make a tremendous difference," not that it was a panacea frau dummkopf.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

This may not be an either/or situation.

That she's being this convoluted and combative about a relatively simple situation is revealing.

He cannot answer my questions. Why is that?