The Silence is Deafening

[rogue06]

Well, there's always the pictures of kids in cages!

(oh, wait --- that was Obama)

Still obviously Trump's fault

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[Ronson]

Bingo!

You can find declarations here

Declarations aren't proof either. Like, I "declare" that Joe Biden stole my socks.

- this is a class action on behalf of parents that were separated from their kids seeking compensation and punitive damages which, if successful, could be a considerable amount. The full complaint goes into detail.

Unsettled lawsuits aren't proof either. Like, I can sue Joe Biden for stealing my socks. Doesn't make it true.

Obviously, if parents weren't cooperative and children had to be removed forcibly, one can describe it as "ripping." But had they not crossed the border illegally then such incidents would have been avoided. If similar incursions happen under Biden's watch, I can assure you the same thing will happen.

[Diogenes]

Declarations aren't proof either. Like, I "declare" that Joe Biden stole my socks.



Unsettled lawsuits aren't proof either. Like, I can sue Joe Biden for stealing my socks. Doesn't make it true.

Did you name your dryer "Joe Biden"?

[Ronson]

Did you name your dryer "Joe Biden"?

I could, but my dryer isn't senile.

[Diogenes]

I could, but my dryer isn't senile.

But it does put out a lot of hot air and responds to the inputs of its operator.

[Ronson]

But it does put out a lot of hot air and responds to the inputs of its operator.

Hmmm. And it spins quite a bit.

[Starlight]

Are Ronson and CP seriously claiming that they either don't believe or never heard of the arguably single most immoral thing that the Trump admin did, which was steal children from their parents at the border and never give them back?

Here's a primer on the Trump administration family separation policy (wiki):

The Trump administration family separation policy is an aspect of US President Donald Trump's immigration policy. The policy was presented to the public as a "zero tolerance" approach intended to deter illegal immigration and to encourage tougher legislation.^[1] It was officially adopted across the entire US–Mexico border from April 2018 until June 2018.^[2] Later investigations found that the practice of family separations had begun a year prior to the public announcement.^[3]Under the policy, federal authorities separated children and infants from parents or guardians with whom they had entered the US.^[4][5][6] The adults were prosecuted and held in federal jails or deported, and the children were placed under the supervision of the US Department of Health and Human Services.^[4] In January 2020 the SPLC reported that the official government number of children separated from their parents or guardians under the policy was 4,368.^[7] Also in January, the American Civil Liberties Union reported that more than 1,100 families had been separated since June 2018, the date that the administration said they would no longer separate children from their parents.^[8]

By early June 2018, it emerged that the policy did not include measures to reunite the families that it had separated,^[9][10] creating a child migration crisis.^[11][12] Following national and international criticism,^[13] on June 20, 2018, Trump signed an executive order ending family separations at the border.^[14] On June 26, 2018, US District Judge Dana Sabraw issued a nationwide preliminary injunction against the family separation policy and ordered that all children be reunited with their parents within 30 days.^[15][16] Two months later many parents and children remained separated.^[17] By November 2020, the parents of 666 children still had not been found.^[18] The administration has refused to provide funds to cover the expenses of reuniting families, and volunteer organizations continue to provide both volunteers and funding.^[19][20][21]

Since June 2018, despite the official end of the separation policy, hundreds of additional children have been separated from their parents. In March 2019, the government reported that since that time, 245 children had been removed from their families, in some cases without clear documentation undertaken to track them in order to reunite them with their parents.^[22][23] The House Committee on Oversight and Reform reported in July 2019 that over 700 children have been separated from their parents after the policy's official end.^[24] In July, it was reported that as many as five children per day were being separated,^[25] and by the end of the year, the total had reached over 1,100.^[8]

In January 2019, the administration acknowledged that thousands more children may have been separated from their families than the previously reported figure of 2,737, with officials uncertain of the exact number. Investigation showed that the child separation policy had actually begun in the summer of 2017, prior to the zero tolerance policy announced in April 2018. Federal officials said there were no plans to attempt to reunite these children because "it would destabilize the permanency of their existing home environment, and could be traumatic to the children."^[26][27][28] In May 2019, the administration acknowledged that at least an additional 1,712 migrant children may have been separated from their parents even before the "zero tolerance" policy was implemented.^[29]

The Trump administration admitted in court cases that it had not given the parents so much as a receipt when it had stolen their children, and not kept track of which children had come from what parents, and had zero way to find the parents of the children it had stolen. It claimed to be physically unable to reunite the families it had destroyed, despite numerous judicial orders to do so, as it had no way to find either the parents (who had been deported and were at an unknown location in central or South America) or the stolen children themselves (many of whom had been trafficked through Christian adoption agencies and were long-out of the government's hands at unknown locations in America).

[Starlight]

Well, there's always the pictures of kids in cages!

You guys seem determined to misunderstand the kids in cages thing, so one last go:

The big difference between the administrations is were the kids accompanied by their parents or not?

Under Obama: A surge of unaccompanied minors crossed the border. They needed to hold these kids while they processed them, and didn't want to put them with adults of unknown character, so they built some emergency shelters. The kids had their day in court in the normal way and were either accepted or deported as per usual.

Under Trump: Families who crossed the border together were separated. The adults were put in one facility, the kids including babies in another. The objection to 'kids in cages' refers to 'kids in cages separated from their families'. Commonly what then happened under Trump is that the parents were deported but the kids kept in America, and then adopted out to Americans, without the permission of their parents. Thus it was (permanent) family separation and child trafficking by the Trump administration that is the issue.

Under Biden: He has pledged to ensure no more families are separated and pledged to reunite the families separated under Trump. Again we're seeing a few unaccompanied minors crossing the border, and those will be detained and then either accepted or deported as per usual.

Clear? One is making the best of a bad situation - you've got to do something with the unaccompanied minors turning up at your border! The other is sheer immorality - you absolutely don't have to steal children from their parents. That's the difference between the administrations.

[rogue06]

Are Ronson and CP seriously claiming that they either don't believe or never heard of the arguably single most immoral thing that the Trump admin did, which was steal children from their parents at the border and never give them back?

Here's a primer on the Trump administration family separation policy (wiki):

The Trump administration family separation policy is an aspect of US President Donald Trump's immigration policy. The policy was presented to the public as a "zero tolerance" approach intended to deter illegal immigration and to encourage tougher legislation.^[1] It was officially adopted across the entire US–Mexico border from April 2018 until June 2018.^[2] Later investigations found that the practice of family separations had begun a year prior to the public announcement.^[3]Under the policy, federal authorities separated children and infants from parents or guardians with whom they had entered the US.^[4][5][6] The adults were prosecuted and held in federal jails or deported, and the children were placed under the supervision of the US Department of Health and Human Services.^[4] In January 2020 the SPLC reported that the official government number of children separated from their parents or guardians under the policy was 4,368.^[7] Also in January, the American Civil Liberties Union reported that more than 1,100 families had been separated since June 2018, the date that the administration said they would no longer separate children from their parents.^[8]

By early June 2018, it emerged that the policy did not include measures to reunite the families that it had separated,^[9][10] creating a child migration crisis.^[11][12] Following national and international criticism,^[13] on June 20, 2018, Trump signed an executive order ending family separations at the border.^[14] On June 26, 2018, US District Judge Dana Sabraw issued a nationwide preliminary injunction against the family separation policy and ordered that all children be reunited with their parents within 30 days.^[15][16] Two months later many parents and children remained separated.^[17] By November 2020, the parents of 666 children still had not been found.^[18] The administration has refused to provide funds to cover the expenses of reuniting families, and volunteer organizations continue to provide both volunteers and funding.^[19][20][21]

Since June 2018, despite the official end of the separation policy, hundreds of additional children have been separated from their parents. In March 2019, the government reported that since that time, 245 children had been removed from their families, in some cases without clear documentation undertaken to track them in order to reunite them with their parents.^[22][23] The House Committee on Oversight and Reform reported in July 2019 that over 700 children have been separated from their parents after the policy's official end.^[24] In July, it was reported that as many as five children per day were being separated,^[25] and by the end of the year, the total had reached over 1,100.^[8]

In January 2019, the administration acknowledged that thousands more children may have been separated from their families than the previously reported figure of 2,737, with officials uncertain of the exact number. Investigation showed that the child separation policy had actually begun in the summer of 2017, prior to the zero tolerance policy announced in April 2018. Federal officials said there were no plans to attempt to reunite these children because "it would destabilize the permanency of their existing home environment, and could be traumatic to the children."^[26][27][28] In May 2019, the administration acknowledged that at least an additional 1,712 migrant children may have been separated from their parents even before the "zero tolerance" policy was implemented.^[29]

The Trump administration admitted in court cases that it had not given the parents so much as a receipt when it had stolen their children, and not kept track of which children had come from what parents, and had zero way to find the parents of the children it had stolen. It claimed to be physically unable to reunite the families it had destroyed, despite numerous judicial orders to do so, as it had no way to find either the parents (who had been deported and were at an unknown location in central or South America) or the stolen children themselves (many of whom had been trafficked through Christian adoption agencies and were long-out of the government's hands at unknown locations in America).

Curious. Do you think the government "steals" children when the parents get arrested for something and there is no known relative to take custody of them?

As the NYT investigation found the most likely explanation for "missing" children was that the caregiver simply didn't respond to the government query.

[rogue06]

And as the OP, let me note that this discussion is about the silence from the left about the reopening of detention centers for children under old Joe after having conniption fits over the Trump Administration's using them (which he inherited from the Obama-Biden administration)

[Ronson]

Are Ronson and CP seriously claiming that they either don't believe or never heard of the arguably single most immoral thing that the Trump admin did, which was steal children from their parents at the border and never give them back?

I think you missed the memo.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/nyt-f...-james-barrett

[Starlight]

And as the OP, let me note that this discussion is about the silence from the left about the reopening of detention centers for children under old Joe after having conniption fits over the Trump Administration's using them (which he inherited from the Obama-Biden administration)

Let me note, again, that the left's complaint about the Trump practices was not that unaccompanied children were in temporary centers, but that accompaniedchildren were being separated from their families and being put in detention centers. Obviously you have to something with unaccompanied kids who turn up at your border, and temporarily holding them while figuring out what to do with them is not unreasonable nor immoral. Stealing them off their families without consent, then kicking the parents out of the country, and adopting out the stolen children, is, however deeply immoral and unreasonable. That is why the left was upset with the Trump administration.

I consider it a right-wing media propaganda lie that the left's primary concern was ever the existence of places to temporarily hold unaccompanied children who turned up at the border. Please stop spreading / repeating this falsehood Rogue.

[Cow Poke]

You guys seem determined to misunderstand the kids in cages thing, so one last go:...

Seriously, I'm really not interested in anything you say.

[Starlight]

I think you missed the memo.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/nyt-f...-james-barrett

Both the link and the underlying NYT article it relies on are too chronologically old - they were written before the details began to emerge. It's like pointing to a NYT article in 2000 as proof 9/11 didn't happen because it said no Muslims had attacked NY as of the year 2000.

Both articles were written in May 2018, and the NYT article which is mainly talking about something else, notes in passing "It’s not clear what has happened to the children that have been separated from their parents since October." Well we began learning more details in "early June 2018, it emerged that the policy did not include measures to reunite the families that it had separated,^[9][10]" (wiki), and the subsequent court cases, House investigations etc have spanned the period June 2018 through to the present day.

[Cow Poke]

(bolding mine)

And as the OP, let me note that this discussion is about the silence from the left about the reopening of detention centers for children under old Joe after having conniption fits over the Trump Administration's using them (which he inherited from the Obama-Biden administration)