Animals are not OURS!!!

[Cow Poke]

They don't have to be. You don't have to hold humans and animals on precisely the same level to refuse to endorse cruelty to the latter. To respect the latter. To admit to their intelligence. To oppose their suffering.

100% agreement, but my statement still stands -- they're not the same. Many animals (sheep) don't fare so well without man tending them. (I believe that's why Jesus refers to us as sheep - sheep are some of the dumbest critters on the planet)

Stop poking the cows,

Perhaps this would be a good time to explain what "poking cows" is all about, eh?

When a cow gets bloated (wrong forage or intestinal problems or whatever) they can literally die if they can't belch up or otherwise pass the gas. The cow is "poked" in the side with a trochar and cannula (or I usually use a pocket knife) to puncture through to the rumen and vent the gas. (Do NOT be standing downwind).

Now, do you want me to stand there and allow the cow to die a very agonizing death, or will you allow me to 'poke the cow' and give her great relief?

and start understanding that they are intelligent creatures that just want to live their lives, not have their children stolen from them, not have fists shoved up their anuses to be forcibly bred, not be killed when their 'usefulness' runs out when they aren't producing enough milk.

I'm not quite sure if this is a parody or you're really serious.

You don't have to hold them to the same level as humans to give them respect.

Ah, back to that on which we agree!

You're not going to find too many people more "kind to the animals" than yours truly.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You were merely making a snitty comment which you claim is "an observation".

You are not averse to making puerile, sometimes scatological, and patronising remarks when it suits your purpose. So please do not get indignant about my "snitty comment".

[rogue06]

That would be because it was kept constantly pregnant. You do realize that cows don't magically just continue to produce milk, right? They wean their kids off and stop producing, just like humans. Dairy cows don't magically just continue producing milk.

Not true

Source: What Factors Determine How Often You Must Milk A Cow?

After the calf is naturally weaned, a dairy cow may not dry up naturally, so you’ll need to continue to milk daily. You may even need to increase milking to prevent problems.


Source

© Copyright Original Source

IIRC, the cow is question only produced a single calf in its life time. My great grand uncle was in his 70s and didn't want to take care of any calves. He said he wouldn't even keep the cow itself except that it was their source for milk, butter and cream.

His small farm had a serious problem with prairie dogs and he was no longer able to take care of them himself. Just running the farm itself exhausted him. So my two cousins, my brother and I went out there with .22 rifles and as one of my cousins blew over the top of a spent shell casing, causing a whistling sound, they would pop up to look around at which point we shot them. The state put a bounty of a few cents for each tail turned in (essentially enough to cover the cost for the ammo) so if you didn't get a clean shot they scrambled back down their hole to die. Even at the age of 9-10 all my shots were clean except the first one for which I got scolded.

As a kid I resented having to go out and work on the farm for a week since that was definitely not how I wanted to spend my vacation. As an adult, I completely understand it because he needed the help.

He passed away a couple years later after finally being forced to sell the farm and move in town but not before his vision got so bad that when he drove his wife had to tell him if the one traffic light there was red or green


Again, talk to farmers and not PETA. The latter has repeatedly shown itself to be less than trustworthy.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

100% agreement, but my statement still stands -- they're not the same. Many animals (sheep) don't fare so well without man tending them.

Thousands of years of domestication has had an impact e.g. the need for some breeds to be sheared.

sheep are some of the dumbest critters on the planet)

Sheep recognize familiar and unfamiliar human faces from two-dimensional images

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...98/rsos.171228

[Gondwanaland]

Despite your tendency to use abusive terms towards me

Pot meet kettle

this is one area where you and I are in agreement.

Indeed.

[Cow Poke]

Thousands of years of domestication has had an impact e.g. the need for some breeds to be sheared.

Cool.

Sheep recognize familiar and unfamiliar human faces from two-dimensional images

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...98/rsos.171228

PETA is still a bunch of crazy people. That's the topic of this thread.

[Gondwanaland]

As a philosophical aside, if life is sacred why stop at humans?

At the purely biological level what makes us so special as a species?

On one hand I can understand it - cognitive dissonance along with being raised to think exploiting animals is normal. I was them at one point, so I can understand in one way.

But it still boggles my mind that we can be so cognitively dissonant that people who are pro-life (disclaimer, I am pro-life myself) and see even the tiniest of human cells and understand that they deserve life, deserve the right to grow and live, and then at the same time look at highly intelligent animals with their own thoughts, lives, desire to live, and think "ok, let's kill that and eat its flesh". It boggles my mind that I was once exactly that person.

[rogue06]

Thousands of years of domestication has had an impact e.g. the need for some breeds to be sheared.

So are we supposed to use a time machine and halt that process? The indisputable fact remains that they need to be sheared for their own health and safety.

[Gondwanaland]

100% agreement, but my statement still stands -- they're not the same. Many animals (sheep) don't fare so well without man tending them. (I believe that's why Jesus refers to us as sheep - sheep are some of the dumbest critters on the planet)



Perhaps this would be a good time to explain what "poking cows" is all about, eh?

When a cow gets bloated (wrong forage or intestinal problems or whatever) they can literally die if they can't belch up or otherwise pass the gas. The cow is "poked" in the side with a trochar and cannula (or I usually use a pocket knife) to puncture through to the rumen and vent the gas. (Do NOT be standing downwind).

Now, do you want me to stand there and allow the cow to die a very agonizing death, or will you allow me to 'poke the cow' and give her great relief?

If you're not killing or miking the cows, then sure, go ahead and poke them.

I'm not quite sure if this is a parody or you're really serious.

I'm quite serious. Everything I stated is factual

Ah, back to that on which we agree!

You're not going to find too many people more "kind to the animals" than yours truly.

Ah, so you're vegan as well?

[Cow Poke]

So are we supposed to use a time machine and halt that process? The indisputable fact remains that they need to be sheared for their own health and safety.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

OR, we should simply stop sheering the sheep and allow them to suffer agonizing death.

[Cow Poke]

If you're not killing or miking the cows, then sure, go ahead and poke them.

I no longer maintain cattle -- I 'doctor' them for others. (And, I'm glad we cleared up your misconception about "cow poking")

I'm quite serious. Everything I stated is factual

So, simple question -- you think PETA is a good organization?

Ah, so you're vegan as well?

Absolutely not - God gave us dominion over the animals, and many of them are food.

BEEF - it's what's for dinner!

[Gondwanaland]

Not true

Source: What Factors Determine How Often You Must Milk A Cow?

After the calf is naturally weaned, a dairy cow may not dry up naturally, so you’ll need to continue to milk daily. You may even need to increase milking to prevent problems.


Source

© Copyright Original Source

IIRC, the cow is question only produced a single calf in its life time. My great grand uncle was in his 70s and didn't want to take care of any calves. He said he wouldn't even keep the cow itself except that it was their source for milk, butter and cream.

His small farm had a serious problem with prairie dogs and he was no longer able to take care of them himself. Just running the farm itself exhausted him. So my two cousins, my brother and I went out there with .22 rifles and as one of my cousins blew over the top of a spent shell casing, causing a whistling sound, they would pop up to look around at which point we shot them. The state put a bounty of a few cents for each tail turned in (essentially enough to cover the cost for the ammo) so if you didn't get a clean shot they scrambled back down their hole to die. Even at the age of 9-10 all my shots were clean except the first one for which I got scolded.

As a kid I resented having to go out and work on the farm for a week since that was definitely not how I wanted to spend my vacation. As an adult, I completely understand it because he needed the help.

He passed away a couple years later after finally being forced to sell the farm and move in town but not before his vision got so bad that when he drove his wife had to tell him if the one traffic light there was red or green


Again, talk to farmers and not PETA. The latter has repeatedly shown itself to be less than trustworthy.

From your source: "and does not have a calf at her side"
Hmm.... now why might that be? Oh, because they are taken away because they consume the valuable milk and cut into the profit margin.

(and yes, cows do, in fact, 'dry up' naturally, just like literally every other lactating animal. This is basic biology, my friend.

https://www.dairy.com.au/dairy-matte...-been-pregnant

https://www.ciwf.com/farmed-animals/cows/dairy-cows/

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Cool.



PETA is still a bunch of crazy people. That's the topic of this thread.

Yet they are not any more than pro-lifers are a "bunch of crazy people" [ignoring the extremists who murder doctors and bomb abortion clinics].

PETA [and other animal charities] use undercover reporting to highlight and bring to public attention issues that would otherwise not be known about. That in, and of itself, is a valuable contribution to raising awareness.

Nor should we ignore the greater environmental impact of factory farming with the pollution of water courses and the attendant risks to human health.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-report-warns
https://advocacy.consumerreports.org...eatens-health/

Nor the destruction of vital habitats to grow crops for feed or to graze animals.

https://grist.org/article/growing-de...on-rainforest/
https://rainforestpartnership.org/th...deforestation/

[Gondwanaland]

So, simple question -- you think PETA is a good organization?

As I stated in an earlier post to you, I think they've made missteps and that I disagree with them on some things (like euthanizing pets, for example). But on the whole, and with the many great things they HAVE done, I do think that indeed outweighs their missteps, and on the whole of the equation are good, necessary, and effective. So yes, overall, and with those caveats, they are.

Absolutely not - God gave us dominion over the animals, and many of them are food.

BEEF - it's what's for dinner!

Ah, so in that case I can certainly find a hell of a lot of people more kind to animals than you. Killing them (or paying for their killing) and eating them is not kindness, it is cruelty.

[Cow Poke]

As I stated in an earlier post to you,

Things tend to get confusing as many people jump in and offer opinions - I can't always keep everybody straight or remember what everybody said - my apologies.

I think they've made missteps and that I disagree with them on some things (like euthanizing pets, for example).

OK, yes, I recall that.

But on the whole, and with the many great things they HAVE done, I do think that indeed outweighs their missteps, and on the whole of the equation are good, necessary, and effective. So yes, overall, and with those caveats, they are.

Perhaps you can give some examples of things they've done that would cause a reasonable person to say, "hmmm... good point, I need to think about that".

The pictures that H_A posted (and were subsequently modded) only cause people to get grossed out and not want to "hear the story".

Ah, so in that case I can certainly find a hell of a lot of people more kind to animals than you.

You do have a tendency to get a tad emotional, eh? Perhaps you would fit in well with PETA.

Killing them (or paying for their killing) and eating them is not kindness, it is cruelty.

This, of course, is your opinion. And, yes, I mostly buy my meat in the store, except for the occasional roadkill that would otherwise go to the buzzards.

So, that raises another point --- when other animals kill other animals for food --- are they unkind and evil and cruel?