THIS is what we are warning you all about!!

[Psychic Missile]

no the problem is you or I could claim to be "trans" and walk into any bathroom we want without a second glance. You keep arguing that won't happen and this rule is just for transgendered who need to pee in the right room. Wrong. It opens the door, literally, for anyone, to go anywhere and use the excuse "well I am transgendered" - how can you prove them wrong if there is nothing to distinguish them since they have not actually "chosen" to do anything about it?

Anyone lying wouldn't be able to prove discrimination against their gender identity. Also, if the laws are smartly written, your scenario wouldn't be allowed to happen. Worst case scenario facilities are separated based on social contract, just like standing in line, and that doesn't strike me as worthy of panic.

LOL, yeah so doctors are the ones driving to let transgenders choose their bathrooms and pampering their neuroses? I don't think so. It is all liberal nonsense. as of right now you at least admit it is a DISORDER. But I am betting pretty soon the liberals will decide even claiming that is discrimination, just like they did with homosexuality. Pretty soon even you claiming that it is a mental problem will be hate speech and liberals will say transgenderism is as normal as heterosexuality and cisgenderism.

Doctors are the ones who pushed for transitioning, so yes. Also, I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that gender dysphoria is a disorder. There's nothing wrong with being trans.

if these transgendered want to be the opposite sex so badly, and want to use the bathroom of that sex so badly, just have the freaking operation. Then they are using the bathroom that matches their genitals and nobody will know the difference unless they announce it. As far as the public is concerned, only physical women are using the womens room and vice versa. There would be no anatomical males in the ladies room. If they want to be ladies that badly, then just lop it off.

Nobody knows the difference before the operation. Either set of genitals are accommodated in either facility, and you shouldn't be staring at people's genitals in a public bathroom.

[Sparko]

Anyone lying wouldn't be able to prove discrimination against their gender identity. Also, if the laws are smartly written, your scenario wouldn't be allowed to happen. Worst case scenario facilities are separated based on social contract, just like standing in line, and that doesn't strike me as worthy of panic.

what are you even talking about? prove discrimination? I am talking about a pervert wanting to use the new law to gain access to the ladies room or locker room to either ogle, or attack women, as an example. Until he attacks there is nothing to show that he is not a transgender identifying as a woman.

And as Seer has been saying you can't even give civil rights to one group and not another. If you claim that choosing your bathroom is a civil right for transgenders, then it is a civil right for everyone.

Doctors are the ones who pushed for transitioning, so yes. Also, I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that gender dysphoria is a disorder. There's nothing wrong with being trans.

That doesnt even make sense.

Nobody knows the difference before the operation. Either set of genitals are accommodated in either facility, and you shouldn't be staring at people's genitals in a public bathroom.

That too makes no sense. If a woman is standing next to me using a urinal, I think I would know the difference and would conclude that "she" has not had the operation. derp.

[Psychic Missile]

Again Psychic, it makes no difference what one identifies as, it matters what my plumbing is. Like you already admitted we could never know if a man who says he identifies as a woman really does. And again, why does my choice of bathroom have to rely on my subjective identification? Perhaps as a straight male I just prefer, or am more comfortable, using the ladies shower. You are giving "rights" to transgenders (A CHOICE) that you withhold from me - and that is decidedly NOT equal.

The right is to not be discriminated against based on the gender you identify as. You are just as able to file a lawsuit as any trans person, you just wouldn't be able to prove discrimination based on your identity. Plumbing is just as subjective an identifier as identification.

I can objectively demonstrate that I am a male, how can one objectively demonstrate that they are trans? Wearing lipstick? And again, there is nothing in the law that even speaks to the transgender issue despite what The Department of Education under Obama claims. All the criterion in the law is based on objective characteristics, not subjective "feelings."

One can objectively demonstrate that they are trans through evidence for adherence to the definition, just as you can do to demonstrate that you are male, in both cases to the satisfaction of the American justice system. The criterion of the law is based on auer deference to the Department of Education's interpretation of Title IX.

That there is no conclusive evidence that this is a permanent condition like skin color. Just the opposite, if the majority of young people who experience gender dysphoria actually grow out of it.

So a portion of young people who experience gender dysphoria don't grow out of it. Isn't that a permanent condition? What about the many trans people throughout history and today who never stopped being trans?

[Bill the Cat]

According the US Department of Education, it is discrimination

They are morons. On every issue.

Gavin is not a woman in the respect that you wouldn't think he was if you both used the same public restroom, which is all that matters.

Yes SHE is. She can't use a urinal. Plus SHE demanded to use the men's locker room for P.E.

You're playing around in your imagination too much when it comes to motivation.

No I am not. SHE refused to use the toilet for which SHE was equipped to use, and then refused to use one set aside for her. SHE demanded acceptance and sued when SHE didn't get it.

During the court sessions in Gavin's case, he claimed that girls in the women's room reacted negatively to his presence and using the women's room is incompatible with his treatment.

Well, that's half the problem. She was treated negatively by the other girls because she was so vocal about being transgendered. 14-16 year old kids typically don't handle oddities very well. And she should not be "treated" as a boy because she isn't.

[Psychic Missile]

what are you even talking about? prove discrimination? I am talking about a pervert wanting to use the new law to gain access to the ladies room or locker room to either ogle, or attack women, as an example. Until he attacks there is nothing to show that he is not a transgender identifying as a woman.

And as Seer has been saying you can't even give civil rights to one group and not another. If you claim that choosing your bathroom is a civil right for transgenders, then it is a civil right for everyone.

Gay and bisexual men and women have been able to ogle and attack as long as gender-designated facilities have existed, and yet that isn't a major problem. How would the cases you imagine be any different?

The civil right is the right to not be discriminated against based on the gender you identify with and whether that is different from the gender you were assigned at birth. That right is for everyone.

That doesnt even make sense.

Why not?

That too makes no sense. If a woman is standing next to me using a urinal, I think I would know the difference and would conclude that "she" has not had the operation. derp.

Either she would opt to use a stall instead because of a physical impossibility or she would be using a device that allows for urination while standing, in which case why are you looking down there?

[Psychic Missile]

Yes SHE is. She can't use a urinal. Plus SHE demanded to use the men's locker room for P.E.

Why does the use of a urinal matter? Why does the use of the locker room matter?

No I am not. SHE refused to use the toilet for which SHE was equipped to use, and then refused to use one set aside for her. SHE demanded acceptance and sued when SHE didn't get it.

As he was entitled to under the law.

Well, that's half the problem. She was treated negatively by the other girls because she was so vocal about being transgendered. 14-16 year old kids typically don't handle oddities very well. And she should not be "treated" as a boy because she isn't.

In his testimony, which led to a favorable decision, he claimed that they consider him a boy, and in fact nobody knew he was assigned the female gender at birth until a school administrator found out.

[Bill the Cat]

Gay and bisexual men and women have been able to ogle and attack as long as gender-designated facilities have existed, and yet that isn't a major problem. How would the cases you imagine be any different?

Rapists have been able to drop roofies in drinks too. So why make them illegal? It's all about the threat, PM.

The civil right is the right to not be discriminated against based on the gender you identify with

Claiming you were the opposite gender was never a right.

and whether that is different from the gender you were assigned at birth. That right is for everyone.

Hence the threat. Who are you to say that creep isn't a trans? And you don't find out they aren't until it's too late.

[seer]

The right is to not be discriminated against based on the gender you identify as. You are just as able to file a lawsuit as any trans person, you just wouldn't be able to prove discrimination based on your identity. Plumbing is just as subjective an identifier as identification.

Nonsense PM, plumbing is not "subjective" - do I really have to pull my pants down! But again, they sill have a right that I don't - to choose the bathroom of their choice (male or female). And I don't care how you try and couch it, that is fundamentally UNEQUAL. You are supporting inequality.

One can objectively demonstrate that they are trans through evidence for adherence to the definition, just as you can do to demonstrate that you are male, in both cases to the satisfaction of the American justice system. The criterion of the law is based on auer deference to the Department of Education's interpretation of Title IX.

What on earth does that mean? How does a man trying to get into the girl's shower in the local YMCA demonstrate adherence to the definition? You are making zero sense.

So a portion of young people who experience gender dysphoria don't grow out of it. Isn't that a permanent condition? What about the many trans people throughout history and today who never stopped being trans?

First it proves that it is not an immutable trait like skin color. And perhaps they just never really grew up. Perpetual adolescence.

[Bill the Cat]

Why does the use of a urinal matter?

Same reason we don't put them in a girls' bathroom.

Why does the use of the locker room matter?

Because SHE has breasts and a vagina...

As he was entitled to under the law.

No SHE was not.

In his testimony, which led to a favorable decision, he claimed that they consider him a boy, and in fact nobody knew he was assigned the female gender at birth until a school administrator found out.

That was a lie then. My best friend's wife is from that little town and she personally knows quite a few of those girls in the High School. They all knew she was a girl because they all went to school together for most of their lives.

[Psychic Missile]

Nonsense PM, plumbing is not "subjective" - do I really have to pull my pants down! But again, they sill have a right that I don't - to choose the bathroom of their choice (male or female). And I don't care how you try and couch it, that is fundamentally UNEQUAL. You are supporting inequality.

It is subjective in that it is only one aspect by which we designate people male or female, so to use that as your criterion is arbitrary. Seer, you have the same right as trans people do. You can use the facilities that are designated for your identified gender.

What on earth does that mean? How does a man trying to get into the girl's shower in the local YMCA demonstrate adherence to the definition? You are making zero sense.

You are asking how someone can prove they are trans, and I am telling you that someone can do so in a court of law after suing because they were discriminated against.

First it proves that it is not an immutable trait like skin color. And perhaps they just never really grew up. Perpetual adolescence.

Seer, the study you cited involved a portion of the subjects having mutable gender dysphoria and a portion of the subjects haveing immutable gender dysphoria. It doesn't prove what you say it does.

[seer]

What is next?

But none of this would compare to the final insult the universe would deal me. sexual orientations, a preference for a group of people who are legally, morally and psychologically unable to reciprocate my feelings and desireshttp://www.salon.com/2015/09/21/im_a...ium=socialflow

[Psychic Missile]

Same reason we don't put them in a girls' bathroom.

I have never seen a men's room that does not have a stall. Really, all urinals could disappear tomorrow and besides longer lines, nothing would change.

Because SHE has breasts and a vagina...

She's been on hormone therapy, so she probably doesn't have breasts. Besides that, people shouldn't be staring and that's what underwear is for.

No SHE was not.

In the opinion of the Department of Education and the judges who have granted trans people legal victories, he was.

That was a lie then. My best friend's wife is from that little town and she personally knows quite a few of those girls in the High School. They all knew she was a girl because they all went to school together for most of their lives.

Upon further review, I think I got the facts of this case mixed up with another. I cannot find any source where Gavin claims nobody knew his situation. I apologize.

[seer]

It is subjective in that it is only one aspect by which we designate people male or female, so to use that as your criterion is arbitrary. Seer, you have the same right as trans people do. You can use the facilities that are designated for your identified gender.

That is complete nonsense PM, and this is where you have to go to save your argument. Male and female (no matter the words we use) are objective criterion. What is completely arbitrary and unequal is the claim that feeling transgender can be the only criterion for having the free choice of which bathroom or shower I choose to use. Again, why should I, a straight male, not have the same right? Based on what?

You are asking how someone can prove they are trans, and I am telling you that someone can do so in a court of law after suing because they were discriminated against.

Yes, how can they prove they are trans when attempting to enter the girls shower?

Seer, the study you cited involved a portion of the subjects having mutable gender dysphoria and a portion of the subjects haveing immutable gender dysphoria. It doesn't prove what you say it does.

Where does the study say immutable? It does say that the disorder is persistent into adulthood for a minority - but not immutable.

[Psychic Missile]

That is complete nonsense PM, and this is where you have to go to save your argument. Male and female (no matter the words we use) are objective criterion. What is completely arbitrary and unequal is the claim that feeling transgender can be the only criterion for having the free choice of which bathroom or shower I choose to use. Again, why should I, a straight male, not have the same right? Based on what?

You think that trans people have a choice of which facilities to use. This is false. What gender you identify with is not a choice. Trans people are to use the facilities of the gender they identify with. You, too, are to use the facilities of the gender you identify with. Everyone is to use the facilities of the gender they identify with. There is no special privilege.

Yes, how can they prove they are trans when attempting to enter the girls shower?

They can't.

Where does the study say immutable? It does say that the disorder is persistent into adulthood for a minority - but not immutable.

I was using your terminology and referring to the minority for which the disorder is persistent.

[Bill the Cat]

I have never seen a men's room that does not have a stall. Really, all urinals could disappear tomorrow and besides longer lines, nothing would change.

But they won't. So, are we now going to retrofit every girls' room with a urinal just for "equality" for these poor deluded souls?

She's been on hormone therapy, so she probably doesn't have breasts. Besides that, people shouldn't be staring and that's what underwear is for.

Because boys wear bras...

In the opinion of the Department of Education and the judges who have granted trans people legal victories, he was.

Liberal DoJ and liberal Appellate court justices. Wow. I'm shocked... sarcasm.gif

Upon further review, I think I got the facts of this case mixed up with another. I cannot find any source where Gavin claims nobody knew his situation. I apologize.

I know quite a bit about the situation thanks to my friend's wife. News spreads fast in a small town...