THIS is what we are warning you all about!!

[Sparko]

The American College of Pediatrics is a radical fringe group that doesn't represent the scientific consensus of medical professionals any more than the Discovery Institute represents the scientific consensus of biologists.

...and there it is.

Took longer than I thought.

[Sparko]

Trans people do not choose to be trans any more than black people choose to be black. Our country already went through this whole issue with homosexuality. We shouldn't have to rehash it for trans people.

Of course they choose to be transsexuals! It is a choice to wear the clothes of the opposite sex, take hormones and have an operation. Do you think that just happens to them? A guy wakes up one day and says "wow look at that? I'm a chick! Wonder how that happened"

[Psychic Missile]

That makes no sense. First a trans male for instance is not being discriminated against, he is free to use the same shower or locker that the rest of the men use. Zero discrimination. Second, then you would have to claim that the real problem is that the male trans does not feel comfortable in the men's room. But that is completely subjective - perhaps a straight male feels more comfortable in the ladies shower too. You can not offer a "right" to one segment of the population and not to the whole population. That is not equality - and you know it. Then, why is the trans' comfort level more important or take a higher priority than those who don't feel comfortable having the opposite sex in their shower or locker room?

All this kerfuffle exists because some trans people were discriminated against. Look at cases like Gavin Grimm in Virginia or Lila Perry in Missouri or Coy Mathis in Colorado or R in California. These people were specifically barred from using the facility of the gender they identified with. Preventing discrimination against minorities takes a higher priority than the comfort level of the majority. In 1967, when Loving v Virginia invalidated laws against interracial marriage, only about 20% of Americans approved of whites and black getting married (source). Obviously, it was correct then for people to be made uncomfortable in order to protect other people's rights. The same sentiment applies here. The problem, as I've said, is that there is no clear, correct path, since validating whether someone is trans is impractical on a wider scale.

[Psychic Missile]

Of course it is. Why in the world would I think you or any other atheist would say otherwise.

I recommend the American Academy of Pediatrics if you are interested in positions based on evidence.

[Psychic Missile]

Of course they choose to be transsexuals! It is a choice to wear the clothes of the opposite sex, take hormones and have an operation. Do you think that just happens to them? A guy wakes up one day and says "wow look at that? I'm a chick! Wonder how that happened"

Gender identity is not a choice, and when I say "trans people" I mean people who identify as as the gender opposite their assigned gender.

[seer]

All this kerfuffle exists because some trans people were discriminated against. Look at cases like Gavin Grimm in Virginia or Lila Perry in Missouri or Coy Mathis in Colorado or R in California. These people were specifically barred from using the facility of the gender they identified with. Preventing discrimination against minorities takes a higher priority than the comfort level of the majority. In 1967, when Loving v Virginia invalidated laws against interracial marriage, only about 20% of Americans approved of whites and black getting married (source). Obviously, it was correct then for people to be made uncomfortable in order to protect other people's rights. The same sentiment applies here. The problem, as I've said, is that there is no clear, correct path, since validating whether someone is trans is impractical on a wider scale.

Right and they should be barred from using a facility that does not correspond to their gender. A black man could not marry a white woman - but a trans male is perfectly free to use the same shower or bathroom as me - zero discrimination. Again, this is about comfort levels and nothing more, and since it is we weigh the comfort level of the many with the few. And I will repeat if transgenders get to choose which shower or locker room they use then that "right" should apply to everyone or it is not equal. Never mind, as you mentioned, you could never know if the male attempting to use the ladies shower is really a trans or just claiming to be.

[seer]

Gender identity is not a choice, and when I say "trans people" I mean people who identify as as the gender opposite their assigned gender.

Actually, I believe many or the majority of those who suffer from Gender Dysphoria actually grow out of it by adulthood.

Abstract

The aim of this qualitative study was to obtain a better understanding of the developmental trajectories of persistence and desistence of childhood gender dysphoria and the psychosexual outcome of gender dysphoric children. Twenty five adolescents (M age 15.88, range 14-18), diagnosed with a Gender Identity Disorder (DSM-IV or DSM-IV-TR) in childhood, participated in this study. Data were collected by means of biographical interviews. Adolescents with persisting gender dysphoria (persisters) and those in whom the gender dysphoria remitted (desisters) indicated that they considered the period between 10 and 13 years of age to be crucial. They reported that in this period they became increasingly aware of the persistence or desistence of their childhood gender dysphoria. Both persisters and desisters stated that the changes in their social environment, the anticipated and actual feminization or masculinization of their bodies, and the first experiences of falling in love and sexual attraction had influenced their gender related interests and behaviour, feelings of gender discomfort and gender identification. Although, both persisters and desisters reported a desire to be the other gender during childhood years, the underlying motives of their desire seemed to be different.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21216800

Gender Dysphoria is often not carried into adulthood. And that may depend on environmental issues.

[Cow Poke]

Gender identity is not a choice, and when I say "trans people" I mean people who identify as as the gender opposite their assigned gender.

Even if that were true, there are many things you could claim are "not a choice", but we (those of us who aren't psycho) don't enable those who take action based on a feeling.

[Sparko]

Gender identity is not a choice, and when I say "trans people" I mean people who identify as as the gender opposite their assigned gender.

They are not transexual until they do something about their "gender identity" Transsexual is not an "orientation". A person could desire to be the opposite gender, but until they actually have an operation, they are just playing dress up. I can call myself a chicken and dress up in a chicken suit but that doesn't make me a chicken, or a transpeciest. It makes me a person with some serious issues. so someone who wants to be the opposite sex and is playing dressup, is at best a transvestite. And the decision to actually play dressup is a CHOICE.

[Cow Poke]

Remember that Star Trek episode where Dr. McCoy was aghast that people "used to have brain surgery" instead of using his little hand held medical fixer? He proclaimed "how barbaric!"

I wonder if, years from now, people will look back at all this transgender surgery and think the same thing. The fact that the mind gets confused and the "fix" is whacking off body parts.... Oy Vey.

[Sparko]

Remember that Star Trek episode where Dr. McCoy was aghast that people "used to have brain surgery" instead of using his little hand held medical fixer? He proclaimed "how barbaric!"

I wonder if, years from now, people will look back at all this transgender surgery and think the same thing. The fact that the mind gets confused and the "fix" is whacking off body parts.... Oy Vey.

The way the world has been going over the last century? I wouldn't bet on it. It will get worse.

[Cow Poke]

The way the world has been going over the last century? I wouldn't bet on it. It will get worse.

Yeah, sadly, I have to agree.

[Sparko]

Yeah, sadly, I have to agree.

They will probably invent a machine where you can change your body like you can change clothes.

[seer]

Yeah, sadly, I have to agree.

I just hope that Tassman is not the Commandant of my re-education camp!

[Psychic Missile]

Right and they should be barred from using a facility that does not correspond to their gender. A black man could not marry a white woman - but a trans male is perfectly free to use the same shower or bathroom as me - zero discrimination.

That doesn't correspond to their identified gender, yes. Trans men have not been free to use the same shower or bathroom as you, that's the issue

Again, this is about comfort levels and nothing more, and since it is we weigh the comfort level of the many with the few. And I will repeat if transgenders get to choose which shower or locker room they use then that "right" should apply to everyone or it is not equal. Never mind, as you mentioned, you could never know if the male attempting to use the ladies shower is really a trans or just claiming to be.

It has nothing to do with comfort levels. It has to do with Title IX and sex discrimination laws. Comfort levels don't matter when rights are involved. Trans people do not get to choose which facilities they use, they use the facilities that correspond to their identified gender.

Actually, I believe many or the majority of those who suffer from Gender Dysphoria actually grow out of it by adulthood.

Gender Dysphoria is often not carried into adulthood. And that may depend on environmental issues.[/QUOTE]

Sure?