An Evolution thought experiment

[rogue06]

I have a pretty good idea of what the responses are going to be, but here goes anyway ...
[BTW, this post was inspired by something written elsewhere by an acquaintance]

In his Origin, Darwin talks about speed in a wolf as advantageous in an environment where prey is scarce.

So here's a thought experiment: a mutation occurs where a wolf is able to run significantly faster than his fellow wolves. BTW, if you think that this is unlikely or impossible then you should think of humans born with IQs significantly higher than average - 1.7 to 2.2 times higher (or more). That may well have been a mutation - no one really knows - since the parents are often times of average intelligence. For argument's sake, let's attribute it to a mutation a la Darwinian Evolution.

Anyway, so now we have this wolf that is able to run, say, twice as fast as his peers. Sounds like this wolf has a clear advantage, right? I mean, he's going to catch the deer that gets away from the other slowpokes. [Yes, I am aware that wolves hunt in packs, I could have used a cheetah ... just stay with me]

So this wolf is chasing its prey and is about ready to make the kill when it collapses - its heart has exploded (heart attack). Why? Because at that speed the required metabolic rate put far more strain on its heart than what the heart, configured as it was, could handle.

Oops - unless the wolf mutated so that both speed and much stronger heart muscles 'Evolved' simultaneously, the additional speed (a Darwinian "clear advantage") would lead to its death (not a good thing).

Are you getting the essence of my point with this thought experiment or must it be spelled out?

Jorge

I can agree with you that being able to run twice as fast is not always going to be an advantage. If, for whatever reason^[1]], the creature fails to catch its prey it will have expended significantly more energy/resources making another attempt more difficult.

Another potential difficulty would be that the creature might be exhausted and in no condition to defend the food it just obtained (I've seen this happen to cheetahs on a TV program).

Yet, a mutation that allows a creature to run a little bit faster than others of its species would not face these difficulties (or at least to much less of an extent) and it would have an advantage in getting food. This means it has a better chance of surviving to reproduce and if this mutation was passed on down to its offspring then they too would have a better chance of surviving to reproduce. And that is evolution in action.






1. The creature might not have the ability to run as far to catch its prey and would need to get in closer before attacking thereby being at greater risk of detection.

[rogue06]

Yes, wouldn't they just say that he heart muscle already mutated to be stronger, then the ability for speed came after?

Off the top of my head I'd say that only if a mutation in the heart muscles was one of the reasons for an ability to run faster, although I would think such a mutation would be more likely to bestow more endurance allowing the creature to run further.

[seer]

Off the top of my head I'd say that only if a mutation in the heart muscles was one of the reasons for an ability to run faster, although I would think such a mutation would be more likely to bestow more endurance allowing the creature to run further.

Yes, though I think Jorge's larger point about the inter-relation nature of these things is valid.

[Sparko]

Jorge, we pretty much do as your OP talks about with selective breeding. Think of race horses and greyhounds. We take the fastest ones with the longest endurance and breed them together, then take the fastest offspring and so on and on. So we know we can do it with selective breeding because we already do it. Your objections are silly.

[Jorge]

Yes I heard a lot of this when we were discussing the evolution of the eye and the necessary changes in the brain needed to accommodate or process the increasing information coming from the eye.

Correct. No matter what is needed, the SP Magic Wand can produce it for the Evolutionists.
I've asked this before: how does one falsify a theory that has essentially no limits on what
it may invoke so that theory remains standing?
ANSWER: Nothing - that theory is de facto unfalsifiable. Enter Evolution, stage right.

And let's not even get started on "information processing". Talk about SP-cubed!

Jorge

[Jorge]

Jorge, we pretty much do as your OP talks about with selective breeding. Think of race horses and greyhounds. We take the fastest ones with the longest endurance and breed them together, then take the fastest offspring and so on and on. So we know we can do it with selective breeding because we already do it. Your objections are silly.

My objections are "silly" only to a shallow-minded person that hasn't thought out the argument sufficiently in scope or depth.

But do keep trying, Sparko. Maybe in a few years the light bulb will finally turn 'on'.

Jorge

[Jorge]

What if, instead of a massive junp in speed, we get a moderate increase. He doesn't die of a heart attack, and is healthy and strong, has lots of progeny and his genes eventually filter into the population. Meanwhile in the same population another wolf gets a moderately stronger heart which helps him run longer and a bit faster. So he also lives longer and has lots of progeny and his genes also filter into the ppopulation. Then after a time the combination produces a population that can run faster and longer, and that sets the stage for a mutation for an even faster runner. Only this time the heart is ready for it.

What you described jorge is selection. The mutation in that group does not help. But over time it might, as in mine.

What you have demonstrated is that you dont understand the theory of evolution very well. Which is to be expected given your aversion to reading long and complicated diacussions of scientific thwory and information.

Jim

Ah yes, one of the standard Evolution Party Lines that I was expecting to hear - "it happens 'gradually'".

My thought experiment had another angle, not the one that you wish. Think, for example, of the kid with average-IQ parents that is born with an IQ of 190. Did that happen "gradually"?

Regardless, my point had to do with the myriad of features in organisms that require the simultaneous "Evolution" of many other anatomical features.

You want to do it "gradually"? Okay, be my guest. So now you have to explain how the PRECISELY-REQUIRED mutations occurred so that the feature in question gets the support that it needs. TO WIT: flight. You cannot just slap a pair of wings on a theropod and push it off a cliff. The Evolutionary process - as per Evolutionists like yourself - happened "gradually, over millions of years". Okay, so over that same time the muscles, lungs, bones, feathers, etc. ALL had to 'Evolve' towards making the creature "flight-ready".

Enter Evolutionary SP. Can such an Evolutionary progression be imagined? Yes, of course it can. Simply introduce whatever is needed. Likewise, we can also imagine a winged pig dancing with Pegasus on the dark side of the moon. Unfortunately, being able to imagine something doesn't make it real and science is supposed to be real.

My point -- that Evolution relies on SP (Special Pleading : invoking an unlimited, unrestrained stream of ad hoc hypotheses such as my example of Punctuated Equilibrium) -- is thus made clear enough, I trust.

Jorge

[klaus54]

Correct. No matter what is needed, the SP Magic Wand can produce it for the Evolutionists.
I've asked this before: how does one falsify a theory that has essentially no limits on what
it may invoke so that theory remains standing?
ANSWER: Nothing - that theory is de facto unfalsifiable. Enter Evolution, stage right.

And let's not even get started on "information processing". Talk about SP-cubed!

Jorge

Jorge is projecting again.

No matter what is needed, the SP Magic Wand can produce it for the Evolutionists. . Should read: No matter what is needed, the YEC Magic Wand can produce it for the Young Earth Creationists.

I just wish Jorge would cease and desist from referring to his ideology as "Biblical Creation Science".

K54

[Jorge]

In almost all discussions of evolutionary scenarios, simplifications are involved. But we see variance like the one I mention all the time. An Elite cyclist or distance runner (sans any drugs or training) will have naturally as much as twice the cardio capacity as some extremely non-gifted fellow human. So what I am proposing is not 'out of band' as opposed to what Jorge proposes. His is the old 'hopeful monster' or the like, the misconception that evolution proceeds in massive jumps. A squirrel born with a 3 foot wingspan so to speak, and conceptually, and more importantly, the path of evolution as implied by the fossils and genetic studies, show it simply does not proceed in that fashion.

Jim

That's a JUMBO-SIZED Straw Man, O-Mudd ... I'll have to remember it for my scrapbook.

What Seer said is right on the money. Your Evolutionary goggles simply impede your vision.

Jorge

[Jorge]

Jorge is projecting again.

No matter what is needed, the SP Magic Wand can produce it for the Evolutionists. . Should read: No matter what is needed, the YEC Magic Wand can produce it for the Young Earth Creationists.

I just wish Jorge would cease and desist from referring to his ideology as "Biblical Creation Science".

K54

Jorge

[Jorge]

You know Jim this almost sounds reasonable, but then it doesn't. Think of all the interconnected systems in the body that depend on each other. The sense of smell, taste, sight and hearing that need a corresponding ability in the brain to process this information. The circulatory system working with the respiratory system and both working with the nervous system. The whole muscle system and its corresponding and necessary connection to the brain and nerve cells. Never mind the digestive system including an interaction between the stomach, small Intestine, pancreas, liver and gallbladder. In each of these cases you have a change in or a creating of, an organ, but then need a corresponding change in a different organ to accommodate this new function or ability. And all by chance...

Those are, of course, excellent points. Unfortunately, as you just saw in O-Mudd's
response, you may as well be expressing those points to a sack of rusty hammers.

Jorge

[seer]

Those are, of course, excellent points. Unfortunately, as you just saw in O-Mudd's
response, you may as well be expressing those points to a sack of rusty hammers.

Jorge

I like Jim, and I like you - I know you guys have a history, but I have generally found him to be gracious.

[klaus54]

...
I've asked this before: how does one falsify a theory that has essentially no limits on what
it may invoke so that theory remains standing?
ANSWER: Nothing - that theory is de facto unfalsifiable. Enter Evolution Creationism, stage right.

...

Jorge

FFY.

I'm SURE you've been told and are aware of how biological evolution can be falsified. YEC is also falsifiable and has in fact BEEN falsified for over two hundred years.

Apparently the key to YEC "debating" and snowing the scientifically ignorant churchgoers is to use the Fallacy of Projection willing, unabashedly, and without limit.

K54

[klaus54]

Jorge

Wake up, Coward! Dozing off is not effective in dodging reality.

Projecting and running is what Jorges do best!

K54

[Jorge]

What's remarkable is that Jorge thinks that this is some kind of stumper for evolutionary biology. After all of these years of fighting against evolution, he still has a grade school understanding of it.

Oh my, I guess it's time to sit down and be quiet ... there's a PhD
that has just entered the discussion and he knows, he REALLY knows,
about this stuff - why Evolution is right and "stupid Biblical Creationists
like Jorge" are wrong. Yup, end of the discussion ... everyone go home.

In fact, he just tossed out one mighty piece of evidence. Here it is again:
"After all these years Jorge still has a grade school understanding of it."

There - are you convinced? If not, then you must be ignorant, stupid or wicked.

It's the age-old crapacola: "If you don't embrace Evolution, then you don't understand it."



Yeah, rrrrrrrright!

There is nothing about the Evolutionary paradigm and 'thinking' process that you can tell me that I haven't heard/studied a hundred times before, sfs1, so return to your classroom where your students stand in awe of your "superior intellect and knowledge". Rest assured, I'm not one of your awe-struck students.

Jorge