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An Evolution thought experiment

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  • An Evolution thought experiment

    I have a pretty good idea of what the responses are going to be, but here goes anyway ...
    [BTW, this post was inspired by something written elsewhere by an acquaintance]

    In his Origin, Darwin talks about speed in a wolf as advantageous in an environment where prey is scarce.

    So here's a thought experiment: a mutation occurs where a wolf is able to run significantly faster than his fellow wolves. BTW, if you think that this is unlikely or impossible then you should think of humans born with IQs significantly higher than average - 1.7 to 2.2 times higher (or more). That may well have been a mutation - no one really knows - since the parents are often times of average intelligence. For argument's sake, let's attribute it to a mutation a la Darwinian Evolution.

    Anyway, so now we have this wolf that is able to run, say, twice as fast as his peers. Sounds like this wolf has a clear advantage, right? I mean, he's going to catch the deer that gets away from the other slowpokes. [Yes, I am aware that wolves hunt in packs, I could have used a cheetah ... just stay with me]

    So this wolf is chasing its prey and is about ready to make the kill when it collapses - its heart has exploded (heart attack). Why? Because at that speed the required metabolic rate put far more strain on its heart than what the heart, configured as it was, could handle.

    Oops - unless the wolf mutated so that both speed and much stronger heart muscles 'Evolved' simultaneously, the additional speed (a Darwinian "clear advantage") would lead to its death (not a good thing).

    Are you getting the essence of my point with this thought experiment or must it be spelled out?

    Jorge

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jorge View Post

    Are you getting the essence of my point with this thought experiment or must it be spelled out?
    The point that you're a scientifically ignorant coward who is starting yet another distraction thread while fleeing from multiple other threads where you have questions pending?

    No Captain Clucky, we get that just fine.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jorge View Post
      Oops - unless the wolf mutated so that both speed and much stronger heart muscles 'Evolved' simultaneously, the additional speed (a Darwinian "clear advantage") would lead to its death (not a good thing).

      Are you getting the essence of my point with this thought experiment or must it be spelled out?

      Jorge
      Yes, wouldn't they just say that he heart muscle already mutated to be stronger, then the ability for speed came after?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Coward,

        Get back to the threads you left dangling.

        And this "thought experiment" has nothing to do with the genetic mechanisms of evolution nor the age of the Cosmos -- which we WERE debated when you scooted leave a little brown trail behind you.

        K54

        P.S. Here's a Gedanken for you, Coward. Put yourself in the sandals of the ANE Hebrew and read the Genesis creation stories from their perspective.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Yes, wouldn't they just say that he heart muscle already mutated to be stronger, then the ability for speed came after?
          Yup, that would be just one of the things that they would say.
          But that's nothing more than Special Pleading (SP).
          Evolution relies on SP to respond to ANY objection raised to it.
          SP essentially makes Evolution immune from falsification.
          There is nothing - nothing! - that SP cannot handle. One example ...

          Who can ever forget the decades-long prediction that "the fossil record will be filled with transitional forms showing species slowly changing over the eons"? When millions upon millions of fossils (a.k.a. observed data) were unearthed showing the exact opposite - i.e., no change and then sudden appearance - it was time to call in the cavalry: the answer-all SP schtick.

          We all know the story, right? Evolutionary "geniuses" Eldredge and Gould concocted the notion of "Punctuated Equilibrium". It goes like this: "Gradual change over eons? No! Stasis over eons? Yes! Then, after eons of stasis - Abracadabra, Poof, Boom, Blah - novel features, novel species and novel phyla." Just like that - it's 'magic'! The "genius" of such concoctions is that there is no way to falsify it. As long as the data are "explained", it's good to go.

          Then that unadulterated garbage gets called "science", gets published in "prestigious" journals, you go to college and pay mucho buckos to learn it, you get tested and fail if you cannot regurgitate it properly, and rewarded if you are a good little parrot, and the beat goes on through today.

          Yup, that about sums it up quite nicely!

          The real scientists of the past are all spinning in their graves.

          Jorge

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
            Coward,

            Get back to the threads you left dangling.

            And this "thought experiment" has nothing to do with the genetic mechanisms of evolution nor the age of the Cosmos -- which we WERE debated when you scooted leave a little brown trail behind you.

            K54

            P.S. Here's a Gedanken for you, Coward. Put yourself in the sandals of the ANE Hebrew and read the Genesis creation stories from their perspective.


            Jorge

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jorge View Post
              Yup, that would be just one of the things that they would say.
              But that's nothing more than Special Pleading (SP).
              Evolution relies on SP to respond to ANY objection raised to it.
              SP essentially makes Evolution immune from falsification.
              There is nothing - nothing! - that SP cannot handle. One example ...

              Jorge
              Yes I heard a lot of this when we were discussing the evolution of the eye and the necessary changes in the brain needed to accommodate or process the increasing information coming from the eye.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                I have a pretty good idea of what the responses are going to be, but here goes anyway ...
                [BTW, this post was inspired by something written elsewhere by an acquaintance]

                In his Origin, Darwin talks about speed in a wolf as advantageous in an environment where prey is scarce.

                So here's a thought experiment: a mutation occurs where a wolf is able to run significantly faster than his fellow wolves. BTW, if you think that this is unlikely or impossible then you should think of humans born with IQs significantly higher than average - 1.7 to 2.2 times higher (or more). That may well have been a mutation - no one really knows - since the parents are often times of average intelligence. For argument's sake, let's attribute it to a mutation a la Darwinian Evolution.

                Anyway, so now we have this wolf that is able to run, say, twice as fast as his peers. Sounds like this wolf has a clear advantage, right? I mean, he's going to catch the deer that gets away from the other slowpokes. [Yes, I am aware that wolves hunt in packs, I could have used a cheetah ... just stay with me]

                So this wolf is chasing its prey and is about ready to make the kill when it collapses - its heart has exploded (heart attack). Why? Because at that speed the required metabolic rate put far more strain on its heart than what the heart, configured as it was, could handle.

                Oops - unless the wolf mutated so that both speed and much stronger heart muscles 'Evolved' simultaneously, the additional speed (a Darwinian "clear advantage") would lead to its death (not a good thing).

                Are you getting the essence of my point with this thought experiment or must it be spelled out?

                Jorge
                What if, instead of a massive junp in speed, we get a moderate increase. He doesn't die of a heart attack, and is healthy and strong, has lots of progeny and his genes eventually filter into the population. Meanwhile in the same population another wolf gets a moderately stronger heart which helps him run longer and a bit faster. So he also lives longer and has lots of progeny and his genes also filter into the ppopulation. Then after a time the combination produces a population that can run faster and longer, and that sets the stage for a mutation for an even faster runner. Only this time the heart is ready for it.

                What you described jorge is selection. The mutation in that group does not help. But over time it might, as in mine.

                What you have demonstrated is that you dont understand the theory of evolution very well. Which is to be expected given your aversion to reading long and complicated diacussions of scientific thwory and information.

                Jim
                He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  What if, instead of a massive junp in speed, we get a moderate increase. He doesn't die of a heart attack, and is healthy and strong, has lots of progeny and his genes eventually filter into the population. Meanwhile in the same population another wolf gets a moderately stronger heart which helps him run longer and a bit faster. So he also lives longer and has lots of progeny and his genes also filter into the population. Then after a time the combination produces a population that can run faster and longer, and that sets the stage for a mutation for an even faster runner. Only this time the heart is ready for it.

                  Jim
                  You know Jim this almost sounds reasonable, but then it doesn't. Think of all the interconnected systems in the body that depend on each other. The sense of smell, taste, sight and hearing that need a corresponding ability in the brain to process this information. The circulatory system working with the respiratory system and both working with the nervous system. The whole muscle system and its corresponding and necessary connection to the brain and nerve cells. Never mind the digestive system including an interaction between the stomach, small Intestine, pancreas, liver and gallbladder. In each of these cases you have a change in or a creating of, an organ, but then need a corresponding change in a different organ to accommodate this new function or ability. And all by chance...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    You know Jim this almost sounds reasonable, but then it doesn't. Think of all the interconnected systems in the body that depend on each other. The sense of smell, taste, sight and hearing that need a corresponding ability in the brain to process this information. The circulatory system working with the respiratory system and both working with the nervous system. The whole muscle system and its corresponding and necessary connection to the brain and nerve cells. Never mind the digestive system including an interaction between the stomach, small Intestine, pancreas, liver and gallbladder. In each of these cases you have a change in or a creating of, an organ, but then need a corresponding change in a different organ to accommodate this new function or ability. And all by chance...
                    In almost all discussions of evolutionary scenarios, simplifications are involved. But we see variance like the one I mention all the time. An Elite cyclist or distance runner (sans any drugs or training) will have naturally as much as twice the cardio capacity as some extremely non-gifted fellow human. So what I am proposing is not 'out of band' as opposed to what Jorge proposes. His is the old 'hopeful monster' or the like, the misconception that evolution proceeds in massive jumps. A squirrel born with a 3 foot wingspan so to speak, and conceptually, and more importantly, the path of evolution as implied by the fossils and genetic studies, show it simply does not proceed in that fashion.

                    Jim
                    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      In almost all discussions of evolutionary scenarios, simplifications are involved. But we see variance like the one I mention all the time. An Elite cyclist or distance runner (sans any drugs or training) will have naturally as much as twice the cardio capacity as some extremely non-gifted fellow human. So what I am proposing is not 'out of band' as opposed to what Jorge proposes. His is the old 'hopeful monster' or the like, the misconception that evolution proceeds in massive jumps. A squirrel born with a 3 foot wingspan so to speak, and conceptually, and more importantly, the path of evolution as implied by the fossils and genetic studies, show it simply does not proceed in that fashion.

                      Jim

                      Well I don't know about all of that but to be honest I'm not compelled to accept the idea that all these interrelated systems just happened to become compatible through a series of chance mutations. Whether through small or large jumps.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What's remarkable is that Jorge thinks that this is some kind of stumper for evolutionary biology. After all of these years of fighting against evolution, he still has a grade school understanding of it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          You know Jim this almost sounds reasonable, but then it doesn't. Think of all the interconnected systems in the body that depend on each other. The sense of smell, taste, sight and hearing that need a corresponding ability in the brain to process this information. The circulatory system working with the respiratory system and both working with the nervous system. The whole muscle system and its corresponding and necessary connection to the brain and nerve cells. Never mind the digestive system including an interaction between the stomach, small Intestine, pancreas, liver and gallbladder. In each of these cases you have a change in or a creating of, an organ, but then need a corresponding change in a different organ to accommodate this new function or ability. And all by chance...
                          Haven't we been over this before with you seer? Animals aren't constructed from parts in a bin where you have to have the correct size nut for the correct size bolt or things don't fit. Animals grow from single cells and their "parts" sizes are all interrelated and controlled by regulatory genes. Things like legs grow longer when their regulatory genes tell them "grow for 25 days instead of 24" and the bones/ muscle/blood vessels all grow in parallel. There's a whole science called Evolutionary Development (Evo-Devo for short) that investigates these signalling and developmental pathways. Evo-Devo also explains how evolution can co-opt existing genes and existing structures and modify them into new genes and new features.

                          Wiki has a nice overview, please read it to get a basic understanding. Then we can talk more.

                          Evolutionary developmental biology

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jorge View Post


                            Jorge
                            Yet another cowardly response.

                            K54

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
                              Haven't we been over this before with you seer? Animals aren't constructed from parts in a bin where you have to have the correct size nut for the correct size bolt or things don't fit. Animals grow from single cells and their "parts" sizes are all interrelated and controlled by regulatory genes. Things like legs grow longer when their regulatory genes tell them "grow for 25 days instead of 24" and the bones/ muscle/blood vessels all grow in parallel. There's a whole science called Evolutionary Development (Evo-Devo for short) that investigates these signalling and developmental pathways. Evo-Devo also explains how evolution can co-opt existing genes and existing structures and modify them into new genes and new features.
                              Really? How does this for instance work with sight and the brain's ability to process information form an increasingly complex eye? The eye and visual cortex for instance are not governed by the same regulatory genes - correct? How about between the stomach, small Intestine, pancreas and liver? They are not all controlled by the same regulatory genes - correct? And I'm not sure what you mean by co-opt existing genes. How do smell nerve cells for instance, cause the brain to be able to process smells? It didn't process smells before. What was co-opted and what turned brain cells into smell recognizing cells?
                              Last edited by seer; 06-10-2014, 12:26 PM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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