Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix
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Originally posted by Gary View PostDoes Keener's book have such a case?
If I could confirm that a person who has been blind since birth (congenital blindness) was immediately able to see after a prayer to Jesus, I would believe in miracles. However, just because someone in the hinterland of China makes this claim, I am not going to accept it as fact. Even if you say a group of doctors in the hinterland of China confirmed the "miracle" I am not going to believe it until I can review all the evidence and interview the patient and witnesses.
So do you have a case of someone being cured of congenital blindness by prayer, IN THIS COUNTRY, that I can review?
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Originally posted by Gary View PostIf I were to read Keener's two volume work on alleged miracles, and still say that I believe that there are natural explanations to explain the miracle claims, you are simply going to say that I am closed minded. So why should I bother?
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostNo. If you want to, you can tell me why you don't think the miracle claims are valid and then we can discuss said miracle claims. Are all of them valid? Who knows. It's a stretch to think every single person who has ever claimed a miracle though has to be wrong all because of an unbacked presupposition.
Faith??
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Originally posted by Gary View PostIf I am not allowed to use the standards of western medicine to evaluate these miracle claims, due to the "metaphysical" nature of these events, exactly how am I going to determine if a miracle happened or if the "cure" can be explained by a natural explanation??
Faith??
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostNo. If you want to, you can tell me why you don't think the miracle claims are valid and then we can discuss said miracle claims. Are all of them valid? Who knows. It's a stretch to think every single person who has ever claimed a miracle though has to be wrong all because of an unbacked presupposition.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostBut my point is this: I nor anyone else can PROVE that a miracle did not happen. We can only show that there are alternative explanations. So how is reading Keener's book going to change that? If I say there is an alternative explanation, you are going to say that the existence of a possible natural explanation does not exclude the possibility of a miracle. We will be back to square one.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostFine. Don't just say there is an alternate explanation. Give what it is. Make a case for it. Show what exactly it is that leads to healings taking place when prayers in the name of Jesus are given.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostYou don't have to, but unless you can show a better explanation, then I have rational justification for believing that it was the prayer to Jesus.
Let's say that Mr. John Doe with lung cancer has been treated with various medical treatments but the most recent CT scan shows that his lung cancer persists. He goes to his church and asks them to pray. The church prays for him for three months. At the end of those three months he has another CT scan. This CT scan shows the cancer is shrinking, and the CT scan 6 months after that shows no sign of cancer. He appears to be cured of lung cancer...or at least in remission.
What is the cause of this man's cure? Could it be that prayer cured him? Yes, we can't rule it out. But it is also possible that the cure is due to the previous medical treatments that are just now having an effect. The other naturalistic explanation is that the man had a rare, spontaneous remission.
How would we know which explanation is the true cause of this man being lung cancer free?
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Originally posted by Gary View PostYou have just demonstrated why it is a waste of my time to read your miracle book.
Let's say that Mr. John Doe with lung cancer has been treated with various medical treatments but the most recent CT scan shows that his lung cancer persists. He goes to his church and asks them to pray. The church prays for him for three months. At the end of those three months he has another CT scan. This CT scan shows the cancer is shrinking, and the CT scan 6 months after that shows no sign of cancer. He appears to be cured of lung cancer...or at least in remission.
What is the cause of this man's cure? Could it be that prayer cured him? Yes, we can't rule it out. But it is also possible that the cure is due to the previous medical treatments that are just now having an effect. The other naturalistic explanation is that the man had a rare, spontaneous remission.
How would we know which explanation is the true cause of this man being lung cancer free?
The time you've spent complaining about the books, you could have read them already.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostDude. Many of these events take places where there isn't the best of medical care. Now if there is other treatment involved, that can be documented as well, but without that, some things happen that are inexplicable.
The time you've spent complaining about the books, you could have read them already.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostAre there any cases of amputees or decapitees being healed in Keener's book, Nick? If not, it is a waste of any educated person's time to read thousands of anecdotal cases about "miracles" that can be ascribed to natural causes. I am a doctor, Nick. I know the criteria in the medical field for believing in a "cure". You don't.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostThis coming from a guy who supports (and I imagine practices) woo like acupuncture, herbal therapy, and other holistic nonsense.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostI have explained the false dichotomy that you are trying but failing to establish as true. The fact that you persist in pushing this accusation against me is nothing but slander.
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