Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[Gary]

OBP. You forgot his other argument. Incredulity.

No. Nick, you still don't get it. Just because there is no evidence to explain a first century missing body, other than a supernatural tale of divine body reanimation, does NOT mean that we are obligated to believe the supernatural claim is true. Extra-ordinary claims demand extra-ordinary evidence. Generalizations, assumptions, and the opinions of Christian Bible scholars regarding the believability of this supernatural tale are NOT extra-ordinary evidence.

It's a ridiculous, silly, ancient tall tale that no modern, educated person should believe.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Let me know when you're ready to deal with my actual case instead of the straw man representation of it.

[Gary]

Let me know when you're ready to deal with my actual case instead of the straw man representation of it.

That's the problem. You don't have a case, Nick. You don't have any eyewitness statements. All you have is hearsay from twenty centuries ago. Ancient hearsay evidence for an alleged once-in-history, never heard of before or since, supernatural/magical event.

The odds that Martians moved the body are higher than that an ancient middle-eastern deity moved the body.

It's preposterous and silly.

And I believe that that is the best line of attack to defeat this ancient, deadly superstition. Continue to point out, over and over again, just how ridiculous and superstitious it is. We skeptics may not change your mind, but by repeatedly getting this message out on the internet, we will hopefully help your grandchildren avoid falling prey to this bigoted, discriminatory, exclusionist, superstitious, hate-inciting nonsense.

The next great milestone in human development will be the abandonment of belief in the supernatural.

[Apologiaphoenix]

So the best way is to keep going with atheistic presuppositionalism you have no case for while accusing Christians that they have no case and basing such straw men on misrepresenting them and refusing to read scholarship that disagrees with you.

Okay.....

[One Bad Pig]

I don't recognize my argument at all in that drivel Gary posted.

And when called on it, he attempts to put others on the defensive by hurling insults rather than making a better argument. Funny, I thought he didn't like insults.

[Apologiaphoenix]

OBP. You forget Gary's rule. It's okay when he insults. It's not okay when others do. It's okay when he asserts something without evidence. It's not okay when others (supposedly) do. It's okay when he makes a generalization statement about miracles that he cannot back. It's not okay when we make a generalization statement about the ancient biblical culture that we can back by pointing to the leading works of scholars.

Gary lives in a strange world.

[Gary]

OBP. You forget Gary's rule. It's okay when he insults. It's not okay when others do. It's okay when he asserts something without evidence. It's not okay when others (supposedly) do. It's okay when he makes a generalization statement about miracles that he cannot back. It's not okay when we make a generalization statement about the ancient biblical culture that we can back by pointing to the leading works of scholars.

Gary lives in a strange world.

I am calling your bluff, Nickster. YOUR SCHOLARS HAVE ZERO EVIDENCE FOR THE SUPERNATURAL.

You scholars can tell me:

---It would be very rare for Jews to move a body. But I already agree with that.
---It would be very rare for any Jew to believe in a dying/rising Messiah. But I already agree with that.

So what more will I learn reading more scholar's books? Answer: More evidence of just how sincerely early Christians believed that a dead man had come back to life and that he was the Son of God. But I already believe that!

So admit your con, Nick: The only reason you want me to read more books is a desperate attempt to get me to believe in magic. Breaking news, Nick: Your scholars are not experts in magic. Your scholars cannot prove that a dead body was reanimated by magic. Your scholars cannot prove that a dead body appeared to multiple people in the flesh by magic. Your scholars cannot prove that this dead body flew off into outer space by magic.

Your scholars are NOT experts in magic---the supernatural, Nick. Give it up and admit it.

Magic is not real, Nick.
Magic is not real, Nick.
Magic is not real, Nick.

Keep repeating that sentence, Nick, and hopefully it will penetrate your brainwashed brain.

[Apologiaphoenix]

The more I read what Gary says, the more I think of the joke of the pastor writing out his sermon outline for Sunday and putting on the side "Weak point: Pound pulpit harder."

Gary is just someone who thinks you can dismiss an entire worldview and all the thinking behind it just by saying "magic!"

Oh by the way, keep in mind while he's mocking this, he's open to miracles.

Please keep up your evangelism Gary. You're doing a whole lot to promote Christianity.

[Gary]

The more I read what Gary says, the more I think of the joke of the pastor writing out his sermon outline for Sunday and putting on the side "Weak point: Pound pulpit harder."

Gary is just someone who thinks you can dismiss an entire worldview and all the thinking behind it just by saying "magic!"

Oh by the way, keep in mind while he's mocking this, he's open to miracles.

Please keep up your evangelism Gary. You're doing a whole lot to promote Christianity.

Let me dispel once and for all Nick's claim that thousands of miracles are happening all over the world, thereby confirming the existence and probability of miracles.

---How many amputees have had their severed arm or leg reattached after praying to Jesus?

Answer: NONE!

---How many times has a family prayed to Jesus to heal/resuscitate their decapitated loved one and had their prayer answered by Jesus?

Answer: ZERO!

So why doesn't Jesus heal amputees or resuscitate decapitees? There are three possibilities:

1. It is never Jesus' will to heal amputees or decapitees.
2. Jesus doesn't have enough power to heal the tough cases.
3. Jesus is dead. The only "miracles" that can be attributed to him are those that have alternative (much more probable) naturalistic explanations.

Miracle claims are a sham by con artists and snake oil salesmen, believed mostly by superstitious, gullible, minimally educated simpletons.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Read Keener yet?

Gary is really open to evidence. Won't read the best work against his view and still insists he's right.

Pound that pulpit!

[One Bad Pig]

Let me dispel once and for all Nick's claim that thousands of miracles are happening all over the world, thereby confirming the existence and probability of miracles.

---How many amputees have had their severed arm or leg reattached after praying to Jesus?

Answer: NONE!

---How many times has a family prayed to Jesus to heal/resuscitate their decapitated loved one and had their prayer answered by Jesus?

Answer: NONE!

So why doesn't Jesus heal amputees or resuscitate decapitees? There are three possibilities:

1. It is never Jesus' will to heal amputees or decapitees.
2. Jesus doesn't have enough power to heal the tough cases.
3. Jesus is dead. The only "miracles" that can be attributed to him are those that have alternative (much more probable) naturalistic explanations.

Miracle claims are a sham by con artists and snake oil salesmen, believed mostly by superstitious, gullible, minimally educated simpletons.

Source: Catholic Encyclopedia

Maddened by a disappointed passion, Caradoc pursued [Winifrede] and, overtaking her on the slope above the site of the present well, he drew his sword and at one blow severed her head from the body. The head rolled down the incline and, where it rested, there gushed forth a spring. St. Beuno, hearing of the tragedy, left the altar, and accompanied by the parents came to the spot where the head lay beside the spring. Taking up the maiden's head he carried it to where the body lay, covered both with his cloak, and then re-entered the church to finish the Holy Sacrifice. When Mass was ended he knelt beside the saint's body, offered up a fervent prayer to God, and ordered the cloak which covered it to be removed. Thereupon Winefride, as if awakening from a deep slumber, rose up with no sign of the severance of the head except a thin white circle round her neck.

© Copyright Original Source

source

I'm sure you'll ignore that, like you do with any other contrary evidence.

[Apologiaphoenix]

"There's no evidence of miracles!"

"Well here's an account of a miracle!"

"That source can't be valid because miracles don't happen!"

"And how do you know they don't happen?"

"No evidence of them!"

"But this is evidence..."

"And it doesn't count!"

"Why not?"

"Because miracles don't happen!"

This is what arguing with Gary is like.

[Gary]

Read Keener yet?

Gary is really open to evidence. Won't read the best work against his view and still insists he's right.

Pound that pulpit!

Are there any cases of amputees or decapitees being healed in Keener's book, Nick? If not, it is a waste of any educated person's time to read thousands of anecdotal cases about "miracles" that can be ascribed to natural causes. I am a doctor, Nick. I know the criteria in the medical field for believing in a "cure". You don't. You are not a physician yet you are trying to tell me that you know the correct criteria for evaluating such claims.

You don't know what you are talking about, Nick. If you presented your argument to any specialty group of physicians they would laugh you out the door as a silly, ignorant, superstitious, country bumpkin.

Stop making a fool of yourself, Nick.

If you want to believe in the supernatural, by faith, go right ahead. But stop trying to prove their existence with anecdotal "evidence". It is uneducated and ignorant.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Are there any cases of amputees or decapitees being healed in Keener's book, Nick? If not, it is a waste of any educated person's time to read thousands of anecdotal cases about "miracles" that can be ascribed to natural causes. I am a doctor, Nick. I know the criteria in the medical field for believing in a "cure". You don't. You are not a physician yet you are trying to tell me that you know the correct criteria for evaluating such claims.

Me no doctor. Me obviously too stupid to recognize cure! Only doctors can recognize cures!

You don't know what you are talking about, Nick. If you presented your argument to any specialty group of physicians they would laugh you out the door as a silly, ignorant, superstitious, country bumpkin.

Stop making a fool of yourself, Nick.

If you want to believe in the supernatural, by faith, go right ahead. But stop trying to prove their existence with anecdotal "evidence". It is uneducated and ignorant.

That must be why so many of the miracles do have medical documentation.

You could try reading it, but that would require you thinking and engaging with a book that contradicts your worldview and you have to stay insulated in it.

[Gary]

Source: Catholic Encyclopedia

Maddened by a disappointed passion, Caradoc pursued [Winifrede] and, overtaking her on the slope above the site of the present well, he drew his sword and at one blow severed her head from the body. The head rolled down the incline and, where it rested, there gushed forth a spring. St. Beuno, hearing of the tragedy, left the altar, and accompanied by the parents came to the spot where the head lay beside the spring. Taking up the maiden's head he carried it to where the body lay, covered both with his cloak, and then re-entered the church to finish the Holy Sacrifice. When Mass was ended he knelt beside the saint's body, offered up a fervent prayer to God, and ordered the cloak which covered it to be removed. Thereupon Winefride, as if awakening from a deep slumber, rose up with no sign of the severance of the head except a thin white circle round her neck.

© Copyright Original Source

source

I'm sure you'll ignore that, like you do with any other contrary evidence.

Yes, and King Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table, and dragons are real too.