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On being a current apologist: A response to Randy Hardman

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  • #61
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I'd say the issue of war reporting is fairly unique because by its nature it is going to contain some (I hate to use this word because it has so many connotations but Enns uses it and it does fit) propaganda.
    Yes, propaganda but also blistering honesty. I think of when the Jews killed the innocents in the tribe of Benjamin.


    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Other types of narrative may be less likely to run into this issue and might be more straightforward. Disclosure: I'm not familiar with the standard apologetic approaches to the Elisha bear incident, but I tend to take it straight up without knowing anything more about the issue.
    Please define "take it straight." As in you have faith those are true events?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      Please define "take it straight." As in you have faith those are true events?
      Basically, that's my default position until the evidence points elsewhere.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #63
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Basically, that's my default position until the evidence points elsewhere.
        Does the default position require effort to believe or is doubt not an issue at all? I'm just wondering if it's necessary to put labor into believing stories not relevant to salvation.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by whag View Post
          Does the default position require effort to believe or is doubt not an issue at all? I'm just wondering if it's necessary to put labor into believing stories not relevant to salvation.
          Not this particular one, no. I don't have a problem trusting God on moral judgments given the wider implications of God's nature in the Christian worldview. Speaking personally, in the past, it was more of a struggle when I felt I had to take Genesis more literally because the cognitive dissonance was ever-looming. But that was because of specific evidence, not because of moral difficulty.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #65
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            Not this particular one, no. I don't have a problem trusting God on moral judgments given the wider implications of God's nature in the Christian worldview. Speaking personally, in the past, it was more of a struggle when I felt I had to take Genesis more literally because the cognitive dissonance was ever-looming. But that was because of specific evidence, not because of moral difficulty.
            I was referring to extraordinary events like Elisha and the rent children, not the midian affair that you determined was tribal braggadocio. You said you took it straight, which I assumed meant you believe everything in the Bible unless evidence arises contradicting it.

            If I understood you correctly that you believe everything in the OT by default (save for creation and a global flood), I was asking if it took effort to keep doubt at bay.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              I was referring to extraordinary events like Elisha and the rent children, not the midian affair that you determined was tribal braggadocio. You said you took it straight, which I assumed meant you believe everything in the Bible unless evidence arises contradicting it.

              If I understood you correctly that you believe everything in the OT by default (save for creation and a global flood), I was asking if it took effort to keep doubt at bay.
              No, it really doesn't. Christian faith is firmly grounded in the resurrection of Jesus, and with that in mind, whatever comes up about the OT, whether it's the latest archaeological finding in the news or whatever, I can just say "Cool, so maybe that's what happened" and not worry about whether the whole edifice comes down.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                No, it really doesn't. Christian faith is firmly grounded in the resurrection of Jesus, and with that in mind, whatever comes up about the OT, whether it's the latest archaeological finding in the news or whatever, I can just say "Cool, so maybe that's what happened" and not worry about whether the whole edifice comes down.
                So something like sons of god mating with women on the earth is believed by default unless proven otherwise?
                What if a Christian like Enns finds that hard to believe even without direct evidence that it didn't happen?

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  So something like sons of god mating with women on the earth is believed by default unless proven otherwise?
                  What if a Christian like Enns finds that hard to believe even without direct evidence that it didn't happen?
                  Enns would be the first to point out that Genesis 1-11 is clearly in response to Mesopotamian myth and has to be considered separately from the rest of Scripture. The account you mention appears there.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Ultimately, Christianity is about the divinity of Jesus, not about the divinity of the Bible. It is not a religion that one can try to deflate by poking a few holes in the Bible here and there.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      Enns would be the first to point out that Genesis 1-11 is clearly in response to Mesopotamian myth and has to be considered separately from the rest of Scripture. The account you mention appears there.
                      Maybe that's what's driving Enns. He might be too winded explaining to Christians that Babel is a myth and not history. Like you're too winded to explain to Christians why evolution isnt the greatest hoax ever believed.

                      Some people are very resistant to being told some of their favorite scriptures are myth. You'd think this would be a liberating thing for some to hear and give them some freedom to wander off the beach blanket.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        Ultimately, Christianity is about the divinity of Jesus, not about the divinity of the Bible. It is not a religion that one can try to deflate by poking a few holes in the Bible here and there.
                        Tell that to those giving Enns a hard time. People like James White and Greg Koukl think he's dangerous because of his views on biblical errancy.

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                        • #72
                          I've read a few more Enns articles since last post. The more I think about it, I realize he's right about conquest apologetics. CA has a main argument that alone doesn't convince, and so other arguments justifying the violence in the human rational mind must be presented. One of those arguments made by Craig--the children were thrown into the arms of Jesus--really doesn't resonate at all. It sounds like creepy proabort speak.

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