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Book Plunge: Why The End Is Not Near

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  • Book Plunge: Why The End Is Not Near

    The sky is not falling.

    Link

    ------

    What do I think of Duane Garner’s book published by Athanasius Press? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    This book is a part of series of answers in an hour. The book is short enough that if you have the question about the end times of if the end is near, this book is meant to answer that. Of course, one could say we don’t know when the end is so it could be near, but I’m inclined to think we still have time since there are still unevangelized parts of the world.

    Thankfully, Garner does hold to the future resurrection of the dead, but most of this is meant to deal with premillennial dispensationalism. Readers of my work know that eschatology is a favorite topic of mine and I speak as a former holder of the view of premillennial dispensationalism. Garner sums up well in his book reasons for my own change in position.

    The position that he is responding to is quite likely the most prominent one in the church today, which is odd since it has virtually no presence in the early church. Even those who try to point to a few isolated passages would have to say those are the exception and not the rule. This is not the case with premillennialism itself. While I do not hold to that position, it was a prevalent one in the early church.

    Garner asks how it was that the modern interpretation came about. There are some that trace it to a minister who held to some heretical positions named Edward Irving or the visions of a Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald. It was largely popularized by John Darby and then further pushed by Scofield’s Bible.

    Garner will point out various hermeneutical problems that I have with the rapture view. One main one is how do you divide the comings of Jesus? We are to talk about the second coming but the rapture is Jesus coming for His church, yet somehow it is not a coming, and then the second coming is seven years later. I’d add in also that Jesus says the resurrection will be on the last day and Paul says at the last trumpet, but if you read Revelation with the rapture viewpoint in mind, then there are 1,007 years at least after the last day and seven more trumpets after the last trumpet.

    The far better way is to read passages like the Olivet Discourse like you would Isaiah 13. Isaiah 13 sounds like a doom and gloom future passage about what’s coming up. However, it is a prophecy against Babylon. Some would try to push this into the future with a future Babylon (Think New Babylon from the Left Behind series), but the reading of it as referring to Isaiah’s near future works just fine.

    While I hold a great love for my brothers and sisters who hold to the idea of the rapture, I do hope that will start changing soon. End times madness is incredibly shaping in the church and those from the Preterist viewpoint, like myself, often have our orthodoxy questioned immediately as if we’re denying the Trinity. I look forward to the day when the church is caught up in understanding many more aspects of the faith than just prophecy.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    (And I affirm the virgin birth.)
    Donate to my Patreon here.

  • #2
    I'm not sure about his interpretation of the thousand generations passage, but I agree that dispensationism doesn't make the Church look competent. And does it make God look incompetent? Because the way it's described sounds that way to me. Why would there only be a mere two millenia for the church when there are still unreached people groups? The book reminded me of how a missiology class I had in college had an optimistic and triumphant view of the Church and her mission.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
      I'm not sure about his interpretation of the thousand generations passage, but I agree that dispensationism doesn't make the Church look competent. And does it make God look incompetent? Because the way it's described sounds that way to me. Why would there only be a mere two millenia for the church when there are still unreached people groups? The book reminded me of how a missiology class I had in college had an optimistic and triumphant view of the Church and her mission.
      The problem is, one must be born-again to see the Kingdom Jesus preached. It came in the time of the ancient Roman Empire when Daniel said it would. But since it is spiritual, the Pharisees missed it looking instead for their physical millennial kingdom. The same expectation of a physical millennial kingdom remains popular today. But this involves a rejection of Jesus' gospel of the kingdom which could mean, most today are fooling themselves thinking they are saved.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        The problem is, one must be born-again to see the Kingdom Jesus preached. It came in the time of the ancient Roman Empire when Daniel said it would. But since it is spiritual, the Pharisees missed it looking instead for their physical millennial kingdom. The same expectation of a physical millennial kingdom remains popular today. But this involves a rejection of Jesus' gospel of the kingdom which could mean, most today are fooling themselves thinking they are saved.
        The millennial to come fits nicely with Jesus' message of the gospel.

        Jesus is preparing a people to assist in that reign.

        This is precisely who the saved people are today.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Truther View Post

          The millennial to come fits nicely with Jesus' message of the gospel.

          Jesus is preparing a people to assist in that reign.

          This is precisely who the saved people are today.
          Jesus taught a spiritual kingdom only. The Pharisees rejected him because they taught a physical millennial kingdom instead. Study the gospels closely and the kingdom came when Daniel said it would. But only the born-again can see it. “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” Luke 11:20 (KJV 1900)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dave L View Post

            Jesus taught a spiritual kingdom only. The Pharisees rejected him because they taught a physical millennial kingdom instead. Study the gospels closely and the kingdom came when Daniel said it would. But only the born-again can see it. “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” Luke 11:20 (KJV 1900)
            No, The O.T. declared a future physical kingdom in the land of Israel per the promise to the fathers.

            In Acts 1, the disciples asked Jesus about this physical kingdom.

            Jesus simply said it is none of your business(you will not see this kingdom now).

            He said rather, go to Jerusalem...

            He had told them earlier that they would REIGN with Him over the 12 tribes of Israel.

            This was when they thought the reign would begin, but Jesus meant along time down the road, ....after His return.

            Jesus taught them all about His Millennial reign.


            Remember Jesus said "the meek shall inherit the earth"?

            This was the future Millennial reign.
            Last edited by Truther; 02-04-2021, 09:22 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Truther View Post

              No, The O.T. declared a future physical kingdom in the land of Israel per the promise to the fathers.

              In Acts 1, the disciples asked Jesus about this physical kingdom.

              Jesus simply said it is none of your business(you will not see this kingdom now).

              He said rather, go to Jerusalem...

              He had told them earlier that they would REIGN with Him over the 12 tribes of Israel.

              This was when they thought the reign would begin, but Jesus meant along time down the road, ....after His return.

              Jesus taught them all about His Millennial reign.


              Remember Jesus said "the meek shall inherit the earth"?

              This was the future Millennial reign.
              Jesus blinded the Pharisees so they could not understand the kingdom prophecies. The kingdom is spiritual, so the OT kingdom prophecies are not literal. But symbolic of spiritual truth. But; “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 (KJV 1900)

              Comment


              • #8
                Do you deny the physical Resurrection of the dead and a physical new Universe?
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  Do you deny the physical Resurrection of the dead and a physical new Universe?
                  What does Paul say about the resurrection body? What makes you think the new heaven and earth are physical?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ! Corinthians 15
                    The Resurrection of Christ


                    15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

                    3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

                    9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
                    The Resurrection of the Dead


                    12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

                    20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

                    29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

                    “Let us eat and drink,
                    for tomorrow we die.”[d]



                    33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[e]34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
                    The Resurrection Body


                    35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

                    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

                    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

                    50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

                    55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
                    Where, O death, is your sting?”[i]



                    56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

                    58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
                    We'll have immortal bodies like Jesus.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                      Jesus blinded the Pharisees so they could not understand the kingdom prophecies. The kingdom is spiritual, so the OT kingdom prophecies are not literal. But symbolic of spiritual truth. But; “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 (KJV 1900)
                      I agree.

                      However the blindness is temporary

                      And yes, right now, the kingdom is invisible.

                      But the invisible kingdom is partial and looking through a dark glass, and must give way to a physical kingdom at the return of Christ.

                      Shall God let satan rule over the visible and invisible world and never get to Himself?

                      Nope, God's plan from the beginning is to rub it in satan's face and rule over the physical earth to finish off His creation of the 1st earth(as we know it).

                      The 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ is designed for that purpose, including glorifying God from all of earth's inhabitants.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Truther View Post

                        I agree.

                        However the blindness is temporary

                        And yes, right now, the kingdom is invisible.

                        But the invisible kingdom is partial and looking through a dark glass, and must give way to a physical kingdom at the return of Christ.

                        Shall God let satan rule over the visible and invisible world and never get to Himself?

                        Nope, God's plan from the beginning is to rub it in satan's face and rule over the physical earth to finish off His creation of the 1st earth(as we know it).

                        The 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ is designed for that purpose, including glorifying God from all of earth's inhabitants.
                        The 1000 years are not the kingdom in any way. They represent the binding of Satan by the gospel from deceiving the entire world. Notice, Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed just before the end comes. There are many problems with your view, this is only one of them.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          And promptly gets his butt kicked. And then the universe gets renovated. Ever read Randy Alcorn's book Heaven?
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                            And promptly gets his butt kicked. And then the universe gets renovated. Ever read Randy Alcorn's book Heaven?
                            You are trying to move the 1000 years into the new heaven and earth. It is forever! Try to understand Jesus' position. The Pharisees created the 1000 year millennium. God blinded them so they could not understand scripture. Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom that hardly anyone believes today. Why? Because only the saved can see it. It is purely spiritual and present since Pentecost.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              The 1000 years are not the kingdom in any way. They represent the binding of Satan by the gospel from deceiving the entire world. Notice, Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed just before the end comes. There are many problems with your view, this is only one of them.
                              9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

                              10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

                              11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited....



                              A king without a kingdom?

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