Originally posted by Sparko
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This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.
The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.
The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."
The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.
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Everyone gets Saved, and there is no Hell:
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Last edited by Bisto; 04-08-2017, 09:05 AM.We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'- 2 Corinthians 5:20.
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Originally posted by Bisto View PostYeah, I thought the Gospel said Jesus will be Judge as established by God? After all, the Apostles preach this as part of the Kerigma in Acts 10:42 and 17:30-31. Jesus more or less says the same at John 5:21-29 and Mt 25:31-46. Paul alludes to it at Rom 2:5-16, 14:9-12; 2 Cor 5:10; and 2 Tim 4:1.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postfirst of all, you are cherry picking an old english translation that cloaks the true meaning of the verse, which is that God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved. men have free will and can reject God.
Most people just give far too much power to their self and it is just egotism to think or to claim that human beings can say "no" to God and that the petty human "no" would then be the deciding factor - which it is not, and no one gets to say no to the will of God.
When people say no and people rebel then we are just saying no to our self and rebelling against our self and our puny words have no effect on the will of God.
It is God's will that all ( all ) people get saved, and that all (all) people come to repentance, see 2 Peter 3:9, and the will of God will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
People think that they can tell God no, but it is just being self destructive and fooling thy self.
Any person can have true power in this world but that only happens when the person aligns with the will of God.
Originally posted by Sparko View Postsecond it doesnt say anything about "There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary." which is what you claimed. where is the judgment seat mentioned?
If you are only trying to pretend that it does not use the exact same words as I used - then maybe it is time to grow up.
Or just use any internet search engine and find it your self. HERE.
Originally posted by Sparko View Postand if everyone is saved why is there a judgment seat?
Also - as already said - the Bible book of Judges explains the point and purpose of the Judges and of the judgements and etc.
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Originally posted by Bisto View Post@JC:
Hi man. Before you quote 1 Cor 3:15 again as if it proved your point by itself, could you please quote it in context and explain how your interpretation of it (i.e. relating it to the Lake of Fire as a purification for the wicked, broadly speaking) fits in the flow of the passage? Can you show the passage is talking about the wicked, for example?
I'm sure you already know the other way to interpret it, but for the sake of transparency let's just say that it's much easier to understand the passage as Paul talking of what believers do in this life for the edification of the Church, and whether that work is worthwhile and caused actual strengthening of the Building being edified (that is, the Church) or not. If what you did was a lasting blessing, so to speak, you'll be rewarded; on the other hand, if what you did amounted to nothing of substance (and trial will tell whether it was), then you'll get no extra reward, though you'll still be saved (because Paul's been talking about believers the whole way!), like a man who is saved from a fire although he carries none of his possessions with him. This whole point fits in his current discourse towards the Corinthians about Paul's and Apollo's and any other ministers's work in Corinth.
The above, more or less, is the more usual interpretation, if I'm not mistaken (please, let anyone correct me on this or complement it as they wish). Can you show why your point about the Lake of Fire makes more sense in the context of Paul's discussion in and around 1 Cor 3?
Me doing the hand wave = swoosh.
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Originally posted by James Cusick View PostAll of this above is complete nonsense trying to divert the truth into absurdity.
Me doing the hand wave = swoosh.
Please explain how you interpret 1 Cor 3:15 in light of its broader context -- what your understanding of it has to do with what comes before it and what comes after it, which are mainly about building on the foundation that is Christ and more broadly addressing the issue of the factions there were in Corinth centered around different leaders (e.g. Paul, Apollos). I may have rambled some nonsense, but I do believe what I said still made some sense and wasn't too far off the usual interpretations I've heard or read of the passage . (In fact, I'll go as far as to say in my previous post I leaned too much into the passage's application for any believer's life, and didn't emphasize enough that Paul was talking about leaders and teachings mainly.)
I'll put the chapter here in case you haven't read it in full recently.
Last edited by Bisto; 04-08-2017, 04:09 PM.We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'- 2 Corinthians 5:20.
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Originally posted by James Cusick View PostHere is a specific text - and it is just one of many:
~ 1 Timothy 2:
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
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See how it says "all" and not some, as in every person being saved, and Jesus Himself as the mediator (intermediary) for all.
:"will have" - θελει - meaning to wish. An intent. Would wish.
2 Peter 3:9, ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ."
:"willing" - βουλομενος - meaning to prefer. Not preferring.
Titus 2:11, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."
Ezekiel 18:4, . . .32, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."
Revelation 20:14, 15, ". . . death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Originally posted by James Cusick View PostI did not say personal attacks.
I said that I do not attack a person's faith.
It is a matter of defending what is true and right, is it not?
So if you are determined to hold onto the barbaric concept of burning people in a fiery Hell as part of your faith ~ then so be it.
Revelation 13: 11, ". . . the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." So our the Lord GOD says, ". . . I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, . . ." (Ezekiel 18:32).
After that comes the "Lake of Fire" to clean and purify the most rebellious of souls:
The scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person, as done in the "Lake of Fire".
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15
The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
The place of the burning of the lost is what has been prepared for Satan, ". . . everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." -- Matthew 25:41.
And it is called punishment and its duration is everlasting (Matthew 25:46).Last edited by 37818; 04-09-2017, 12:12 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Revelation 13: 11,
Revelation 14: 11,. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by James Cusick View PostYou are the one "cherry picking" when you say = "God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved."
Most people just give far too much power to their self and it is just egotism to think or to claim that human beings can say "no" to God and that the petty human "no" would then be the deciding factor - which it is not, and no one gets to say no to the will of God.
Also - as already said - the Bible book of Judges explains the point and purpose of the Judges and of the judgements and etc.
The book of Judges is the story of how Israel kept rebelling against God and God appointed Judges to PUNISH THEM.
It has nothing to do with the DAY of Judgment. If everyone is saved then he would not need to judge anyone would he?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOh sure God can MAKE everyone "saved" but only by taking away their free will. He chooses not to. He wants everyone to be saved but it is up to them. He holds the door open, but you have to walk through it. The bible is clear in many many places that there is a judgment day and that not everyone will be saved. People like you just cherry pick verses that they like and ignore the ones that prove them wrong.
Have you actually read the book of Judges? because apparently you have not.
The book of Judges is the story of how Israel kept rebelling against God and God appointed Judges to PUNISH THEM.
It has nothing to do with the DAY of Judgment. If everyone is saved then he would not need to judge anyone would he?If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostLet's look at v.4, ". . . Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. . . ."
:"will have" - θελει - meaning to wish. An intent. Would wish.
2 Peter 3:9, ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ."
:"willing" - βουλομενος - meaning to prefer. Not preferring.
Titus 2:11, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."
Human beings might wish it or hope it but God commands it.
The will of God = will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
You are viewing it as if man (male and female) have a will which is strong against God, and that God's will is not going to be fulfilled, and the exact opposite is the truth.
God's will is for all (for all) to be saved - and it will be done = see the Bible text that you quote above.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostEzekiel 18:4, . . .32, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."
Revelation 20:14, 15, ". . . death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
The Bible says death and die then it does not mean go to any such place as Hell except that the Hell means the grave.
Death and die go together with the grave.
And as you quote = The soul dies, as in a dead body in the grave (sheol).
The death and the second death is explained by the Apostle Paul as death to sin, people die to sin, which is done in the lake of fire where the sins are burned yet the person is saved.
DEATH TO SIN - is the SECOND DEATH for every person.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostBut it is a matter what the holy scriptures actually teach, is it not?
Revelation 13: 11, ". . . the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." So our the Lord GOD says, ". . . I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, . . ." (Ezekiel 18:32).
And even torment does not mean burning or torture as it can mean regrets and sorrow which is to be expected from human sins even after being forgiven.
And again you quote "death" and "dieth" as if that means torture in Hell which it does not.
The first death is the body dies, and the second death means dead to sin.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostNo. You conflate the burning of the persons (John 15:6; Revelation 21:8 ) with the burning of persons' works of those who are already saved (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).
And that is only true of those who are born of God (1 John 5:1, 4-5; Revelation 2:11).
My way is from the famous saying = Hate the sin but not the sinner.
So yes I see the burning of sins and not the burning of sinners.
And every person throughout humanity are the children of God.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe place of the burning of the lost is what has been prepared for Satan, ". . . everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." -- Matthew 25:41.
Matthew 25:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
You are applying it to after death when Jesus is talking about the here-n-now.
Everlasting fire is a blessing to humans for repentance and forgiveness, because the fire burns the sins and saves the person.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostAnd it is called punishment and its duration is everlasting (Matthew 25:46).
Jesus paid the penalty (the punishment) in full. Jesus paid for all sins on the cross.
Now the gift of God is forgiveness and mercy and salvation to all.
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@JC
Hi again. You don't have to reply to this message too (I'm guessing you may have enough posts to reply to as it is), but I am curious. Given your above post describing your understanding of the 'escathological fire' and Second Death and all that (things usually related to Hell), I'd like to ask you, how do you read Isaiah 66:22-24? I suggest you read the whole passage for context (seriously, please do), but here's the last three verses, set in the New Creation:
Who are 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Who are 'all mankind' in this passage? (v.23, 24)
Who looks on the bodies of 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Whom are 'those who rebelled against Me' loathsome to?* (v.24)
If 'all mankind' here does not, indeed, refer to ALL of mankind, then what could that imply on other instances where such inclusive language is used?
Look, I am not trying to affirm that either (a) the worms are literal or (b) the fire is literal (though from passages like this one, I guess I could). But Jesus did get 'Gehenna' imagery from this passage (e.g. Mark 9), so let's just focus on the people mentioned, and whatever implications that might have... and maybe the fact that the book ends here.
Cheers,
Bisto.
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(*): I am not sure if the grammar I used in this question is correct. Sorry. Second language and all.Last edited by Bisto; 04-10-2017, 01:40 PM.We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'- 2 Corinthians 5:20.
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Originally posted by Bisto View Post@JC
Hi again. You don't have to reply to this message too (I'm guessing you may have enough posts to reply to as it is), but I am curious. Given your above post describing your understanding of the 'escathological fire' and Second Death and all that (things usually related to Hell), I'd like to ask you, how do you read Isaiah 66:22-24? I suggest you read the whole passage for context (seriously, please do), but here's the last three verses, set in the New Creation:
Who are 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Who are 'all mankind' in this passage? (v.23, 24)
Who looks on the bodies of 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Whom are 'those who rebelled against Me' loathsome to?* (v.24)
If 'all mankind' here does not, indeed, refer to ALL of mankind, then what could that imply on other instances where such inclusive language is used?
Look, I am not trying to affirm that either (a) the worms are literal or (b) the fire is literal (though from passages like this one, I guess I could). But Jesus did get 'Gehenna' imagery from this passage (e.g. Mark 9), so let's just focus on the people mentioned, and whatever implications that might have... and maybe the fact that the book ends here.
Cheers,
Bisto.
The "dead bodies" mean dead and not living, and dead bodies means dead corpse or carcass.
The worms eat a dead carcass and that fire burns the dead carcass = and that is what this verse declares - which is the same thing as Gehenna too as Jesus was talking about for dead bodies being eaten by worms and burned in a physical fire in the garbage dump.
And more-so in the last 2 words on verse 24 it again declares "all mankind" see it as loathsome and again "all" means all, as when all people get saved through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross who paid the penalty for all of our sins.
Originally posted by Bisto View Post---------
(*): I am not sure if the grammar I used in this question is correct. Sorry. Second language and all.
Such things are very common with people in every form of writing and typing and in talking too.
The English language and especially the American English is really a very limited and barbaric language with lots of huge discrepancies.
I did not really know this about the English language until studying the scriptures as translated from other languages and then it became clear.
I like to point out that the English language has only one word for "Love" and even it is not well defined as most people do not know what Love means and virtually no one accept the dictionary definition of Love, but in English we have lots of various words for murder, as murder can be said in so many varieties, as like assassination or lethal injection or as collateral damages, and etc etc etc. So we have one uncertain word for Love but many words for murder = it is a barbaric language.
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