Everyone gets Saved, and there is no Hell:

[James Cusick]

Reply:

I hold the view point the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable.

I hold the view point that on account that Christ died for all (2 Corinthians 5:14-15) that He paid for the sins of all mankind. So I hold the view that everyone's name is in the Book of Life.

Names get blotted out (Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 21:1, 27; Psalm 69:27-28).

I hold the view that Christ is the true vine (John 15:1). And that everyone is in the vine by reason Christ died for everyone. Those who do not remain in Him are removed (John 15:2, 6; 2 John 9; John 8:24).

I hold the view point that Christ having died for everyone will either be their Savior or their condemning Judge (Romans 14:9-11). The living are the saved the dead are the lost.

If God after all is said in the Holy Scriptures, restores everyone, the Holy Scriptures do not tell me this.

I see you are defensive and you have up your guard, and of course no one can get past your self defense.

So that puts you and I at a stand still, and there is no more to say between you and I.

I like to discuss the subject yes, but I do not want to attack your faith.


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Well, you are wrong. There is no salvation after death. Please provide scriptural support for this view.

Thanks.

There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary.

That therefore is at least one example of salvation coming after death.

There are two (2) kinds of salvation, being the physical salvation from sin here on earth, and later the spiritual salvation after death which Jesus has already paid for in full.

[James Cusick]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21771[/ATTACH]

I love that.

A lone ranger walking alone.

Just as did by Jesus to the cross.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

You mean like:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroydestroyed

Jesus was preaching about salvation from death and the grave.

The thing is that you know just as we all know that the Greek word "Hades" means the grave and the English word "hell" means the grave too, and yet here you are again passing it off as a burning torment from God which it is not.

That is like preaching Santa Claus when we all know that it is not true.

Who are you trying to fool? but your self.

And above you use the word DESTROY (destroyed) as if that too means burning in torment, and to destroy does not mean burning in any such place as a Hell.

People get destroyed in the grave, and Jesus taught a message about being saved from death and from the grave called salvation.

[Sparko]

Jesus was preaching about salvation from death and the grave.

The thing is that you know just as we all know that the Greek word "Hades" means the grave and the English word "hell" means the grave too, and yet here you are again passing it off as a burning torment from God which it is not.

That is like preaching Santa Claus when we all know that it is not true.

Who are you trying to fool? but your self.

And above you use the word DESTROY (destroyed) as if that too means burning in torment, and to destroy does not mean burning in any such place as a Hell.

People get destroyed in the grave, and Jesus taught a message about being saved from death and from the grave called salvation.

You are determined to twist the scripture to mean what you want it to mean instead of what it plainly says. You condemn yourself and drag down others with you.

And the word used there is "gehenna" which is a representation of the eternal torment of hell. not the grave. Why would your soul be in the grave?

[Sparko]

James, from your posts it has become clear that you are not very familiar with the bible. You seem to just make claims based on things that you read about the bible elsewhere. I urge you to actually READ the bible in full. Your eyes will be opened.

For example:

There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary.

Can you quote the verse(s) for me that say this?

[James Cusick]

Reply:

And the word used there is "gehenna" which is a representation of the eternal torment of hell. not the grave. Why would your soul be in the grave?

You and we all know about the word "Gehenna" too, about it being a dump site outside of Jerusalem.

It is not some place of torment as told in the Greek religion of Hades or Hell.

In old English as the King's English as like in the KJV - the word soul just means persons or body, as like 1500 souls went down in the Titanic.

[TheWall]

Look up the book shades of sheol or watch the video jp made about king James and hell. Hell did not suddenly emerge out of nowhere.

[Sparko]

You and we all know about the word "Gehenna" too, about it being a dump site outside of Jerusalem.

It is not some place of torment as told in the Greek religion of Hades or Hell.

In old English as the King's English as like in the KJV - the word soul just means persons or body, as like 1500 souls went down in the Titanic.

It was used to represent the place of damnation. Do you really think they thought that the evil would be tormented in a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem? The use of the word Gehenna was a visual analogy to where the sinners would be condemned to after judgment. A cursory reading of the New Testament will show you that.

And no, Soul does not mean Body.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Do you think he was saying "destroy both body and body in hell?"


Again, Jim, READ THE BIBLE. Just read it. What are you afraid of?

[Sparko]

James, from your posts it has become clear that you are not very familiar with the bible. You seem to just make claims based on things that you read about the bible elsewhere. I urge you to actually READ the bible in full. Your eyes will be opened.

For example:

There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary.

Can you quote the verse(s) for me that say this?

James? still waiting.

[37818]

I see you are defensive and you have up your guard, and of course no one can get past your self defense.

So that puts you and I at a stand still, and there is no more to say between you and I.

I like to discuss the subject yes, but I do not want to attack your faith.

Discussing the subject and points of disagreement is not to be taken as personal attacks.

For example: ". . . every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ." -- Romans 14:11.

You seem to believe that means everyone will be saved, after all is said and done.
I am of the point of view that both the saved and the lost will do this.

Jesus made it clear not everyone who confess Him as Lord will be saved, ". . . Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; . . . then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. . . ." -- Matthew 7:21-23.

[Bisto]

Discussing the subject and points of disagreement is not to be taken as personal attacks.

For example: ". . . every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ." -- Romans 14:11.

You seem to believe that means everyone will be saved, after all is said and done.
I am of the point of view that both the saved and the lost will do this.

Jesus made it clear not everyone who confess Him as Lord will be saved, ". . . Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; . . . then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. . . ." -- Matthew 7:21-23.

A POSSIBLE example of what you are saying here would be the reaction of demon-possessed people to Jesus in the Gospels. Their actions could be vaguely paraphrased as bending the knee and confessing His authority and identity as Son of God, but this hardly meant the demons were now in a right relationship with God again.


Besides, the whole scene of the passages in question (Phil 2, Rom 14) comes from Isaiah 45, where YHWH is saying that, in the future, everyone will bend the knee and confess His name -- and after that, those who were angry at Him will be put to shame (v.24), sort of implying that SOME of the people who did the previous action would be punished somehow afterwards.

One might add that the latter part of this passage, if this is indeed talking of Final Judgement (which Rom 14 and Phil 2 seem to mean), would fit nicely with a Hell-as-shame paradigm.

@JC

[James Cusick]

Reply:

James? still waiting.

Here is a specific text - and it is just one of many:

~ 1 Timothy 2:
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
---

See how it says "all" and not some, as in every person being saved, and Jesus Himself as the mediator (intermediary) for all.

Of course you did not really need to wait for me to tell you this.

-----------------------------------------

Look up the book shades of sheol or watch the video jp made about king James and hell. Hell did not suddenly emerge out of nowhere.

The Bible is the final authority.

There is no book or video to tell us what is not said in the plain and clear text of the Bible.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

Discussing the subject and points of disagreement is not to be taken as personal attacks.

I did not say personal attacks.

I said that I do not attack a person's faith.

So if you are determined to hold onto the barbaric concept of burning people in a fiery Hell as part of your faith ~ then so be it.

For example: ". . . every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ." -- Romans 14:11.

You seem to believe that means everyone will be saved, after all is said and done.
I am of the point of view that both the saved and the lost will do this.

Jesus made it clear not everyone who confess Him as Lord will be saved, ". . . Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; . . . then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. . . ." -- Matthew 7:21-23.

After that comes the "Lake of Fire" to clean and purify the most rebellious of souls:

The scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person, as done in the "Lake of Fire".

See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

[Sparko]

Here is a specific text - and it is just one of many:

~ 1 Timothy 2:
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
---

See how it says "all" and not some, as in every person being saved, and Jesus Himself as the mediator (intermediary) for all.

Of course you did not really need to wait for me to tell you this.

-----------------------------------------



The Bible is the final authority.

There is no book or video to tell us what is not said in the plain and clear text of the Bible.

first of all, you are cherry picking an old english translation that cloaks the true meaning of the verse, which is that God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved. men have free will and can reject God.

second it doesnt say anything about "There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary." which is what you claimed. where is the judgment seat mentioned?

and if everyone is saved why is there a judgment seat?

[Bisto]

@JC:

Hi man. Before you quote 1 Cor 3:15 again as if it proved your point by itself, could you please quote it in context and explain how your interpretation of it (i.e. relating it to the Lake of Fire as a purification for the wicked, broadly speaking) fits in the flow of the passage? Can you show the passage is talking about the wicked, for example?

I'm sure you already know the other way to interpret it, but for the sake of transparency let's just say that it's much easier to understand the passage as Paul talking of what believers do in this life for the edification of the Church, and whether that work is worthwhile and caused actual strengthening of the Building being edified (that is, the Church) or not. If what you did was a lasting blessing, so to speak, you'll be rewarded; on the other hand, if what you did amounted to nothing of substance (and trial will tell whether it was), then you'll get no extra reward, though you'll still be saved (because Paul's been talking about believers the whole way!), like a man who is saved from a fire although he carries none of his possessions with him. This whole point fits in his current discourse towards the Corinthians about Paul's and Apollo's and any other ministers's work in Corinth.

The above, more or less, is the more usual interpretation, if I'm not mistaken (please, let anyone correct me on this or complement it as they wish). Can you show why your point about the Lake of Fire makes more sense in the context of Paul's discussion in and around 1 Cor 3?