Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

[Sparko]

That is referring to God the Father not the Son.

[Sparko]

Also BibleUser, if someone else from the moderator staff has not contacted you yet, as a nontrinitarian you need to change your faith designation in your profile to "Unorthodox"

This is an official request (I am one of the owners here)

Thanks

[One Bad Pig]

Interesting translation you're using there.

[Sparko]

Interesting translation you're using there.

Yeah I missed that. NWT. I suspected that BU is a Jehovah's Witness previously but he never answered me.

[37818]

Let me understand this, are you saying Jehovah is not Almighty God because He has been seen? ". . . And Jehovah appeared unto Abram, and said, . . . " -- Genesis 12:7. ". . . mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts. . . ." -- Isaiah 6:5.

[tabibito]

As Sparko noted, not a reference to God, but to the Father. John also (when quoting Jesus) says "no-one has seen the Father." Plenty of people are recorded in the Old Testament to have seen God, as noted by 37818, so interpretation based on a proper textual analysis is necessary. Reading "God" as meaning other than the Father is at best a matter of eisegesis.


Look again - it doesn't say "God", it says "Father." Nor can this text be a general "you" - it is quite clearly aimed at a specific group of people.

Ah. You are aware of the text I referred to earlier - it seems strange that you should have missed its significance, and failed to investigate further.


It can readily be demonstrated that not everything in the Bible is inspired by God - so no, the premise results in an unsound conclusion. ... and it would be unsound even if the conclusion were true.

[Bibleuser]

Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

Here is some great help for you:-GOD CANNOT BE SEEN, BUT JESUS HAS BEEN SEEN.JESUS IS SUBSERVIENT TO GOD!
THE APOSTLEONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN

[Bill the Cat]

Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

Here is some great help for you:-

No it doesn't. It uses the phrase Theos pater.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father,

Ephesians 6:23 May the brothers have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

Congratulations. You just proved the Father is not the Son.

GOD CANNOT BE SEEN, BUT JESUS HAS BEEN SEEN.JESUS IS SUBSERVIENT TO GOD!
THE APOSTLEONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN

YAY!!! quote wars!!!

Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."
John 1:49,
"Nathanael answered Him, 'Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.'"
Rev. 22:12-13,
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


Deut. 10:17,
"For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality, nor take a bribe."
Rev. 17:14,
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

Joel 2:32,
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls."
Rom. 10:13 ,
"for 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."
Phil. 2:10-11,
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

[tabibito]

[QUOTE=Bibleuser;500226]Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

Here is some great help for you:-

IN THE BIBLE.

Jesus is identified as God, and as the creator. The Holy Spirit is identified as God. The Father is identified as God. The fact that the Bible does not use the phrases "God the ~" does not mean that the identification is absent.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father,

Ephesians 6:23 May the brothers have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

Yes, the separate identities of "God the Father" and the "Lord Jesus Christ" are indeed shown. None of these passages make mention of whether (or not) Jesus Christ is God.


[quote]

1 Cor. 8:6 there is actually to us ONE GOD, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

This would perhaps argue against co-equal, but it doesn't address the identification of Christ Jesus or the Holy Spirit as God.

So, there is a mediator between God (one) and man (a collective, other, one) This does not address the identity of Christ Jesus as God, not pro and not con.



Again, this might support an argument against co-equality - it has nothing to say about the argument for identity.

"was not" could be supported.


Not even in the ball park as far as Christ's identity goes.

THE BIBLE STATES THAT GOD CANNOT BE SEEN, BUT JESUS HAS BEEN SEEN.

Did you not read the earlier responses to this claim?

Eh? You just got through claiming that no man has seen God (disregarding previous explanations.) Now you claim that Jesus has seen God. If nothing else, that would demonstrate that Jesus is not a man. However, your claim about the signification of "No man has seen God" is in error.

The Bible does in fact state that quite a number of people have seen God. So disregarding the explanation of "no man has seen God" leaves you without a plausible argument. The translation of 2 Tim 3:16-17 is questionable, and even if it were proven an accurate translation, it would be disproven by the actual existence of errors in the scriptural record.

JESUS IS SUBSERVIENT TO GOD!

Yup - there is strong argument in the New Testament against the idea that Jesus WAS co-equal with the Father during the time between his birth and death. Problem is - the Old Testament prophecy identifies the person who was pierced as God himself.

THE APOSTLE

Almost got it. Of persons, "apostle" means "commissioner" (or even "high commissioner") However, you missed a couple of key words that show this as one role of several which Jesus adopted during his time as a man (including being human).

ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN

Yup, mediator, priest, rabbi even, apostle, high priest - all roles that Jesus the man had - and by no means a complete list.

[Bibleuser]

True some of many roles.
As a Mediator he acts as a go-between between for Christians and God, thus is not God but acting out his role as The Lamb of God and also as High Priest of God. God cannot be his own Mediator or High Priest, the are a servants role for God.
BU

[Bill the Cat]

True some of many roles.
As a Mediator he acts as a go-between between for Christians and God, thus is not God but acting out his role as The Lamb of God and also as High Priest of God. God cannot be his own Mediator or High Priest, the are a servants role for God.
BU

Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."


John 1:49,
"Nathanael answered Him, 'Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.'"


Rev. 22:12-13,
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

[37818]

There is no disagreement in the man Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5) being the mediator between man and God. And that God not being a man (John 4:24).

Jesus made the claim that he was man's sole access to God the Father (John 14:6).


The problem you have not answered, is Jehovah being God and being seen (Genesis 12:7; Isaiah 6:5).

[Darfius]

A lot of time was wasted responding to this heretic with fallacious appeals to authority. No created being could have entered a sinful world through birth as a man and remained completely sinless its entire life. For "all" have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God alone could have done it, which is why He did. Game. Set. Match.

There's also all the times Jesus spoke as and received worship reserved for God, but let's pretend "before Abraham was, I AM" never happened in the name of some clearly pretentious "struggle" with the truth. Those who deny the Son deny the Father and are the spirit of antichrist. The context makes it obvious that "denying" the Son means denying His divinity. Good luck in hell.

[Bibleuser]

There is no disagreement in the man Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5) being the mediator between man and God. And that God not being a man (John 4:24).

Jesus made the claim that he was man's sole access to God the Father (John 14:6).


The problem you have not answered, is Jehovah being God and being seen (Genesis 12:7; Isaiah 6:5).

As God said this it must be true.

So Abraham, Moses, etc., etc, could not have seen GOD.
BU

[Bibleuser]

No it doesn't. It uses the phrase Theos pater.



Congratulations. You just proved the Father is not the Son.






YAY!!! quote wars!!!

Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."
John 1:49,
"Nathanael answered Him, 'Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.'"
Rev. 22:12-13,
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


Deut. 10:17,
"For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality, nor take a bribe."
Rev. 17:14,
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

Joel 2:32,
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls."
Rom. 10:13 ,
"for 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."
Phil. 2:10-11,
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

All true.
BU