Christianity is a falling religion

[robrecht]

It's a dodge with abusive accusations. You did not answer the question: Another point is that Islam has always considered the Trinity as shirk and clearly polytheism. I guess you consider their belief as misrepresentation and disrespect of Christianity. The philosophical and theological arguments in Islam are very similar to mine.

No, I have not abused you. I do not personally know any Muslims who are disrespectful toward me as a Christian or toward Christianity in general, 'though I am sure there are are some, perhaps many. Their beliefs about the various doctrines or theologies of the Trinity may indeed be misinterpretations. Could they end up being disrespectful toward Christians based, in part, upon their misinterpretations of Christianity or some of its doctrines, sure they could. Have any Muslims ever done this? I presume so. But a belief or interpretation or misrepresentation in and of itself is simply that, and it is not necessarily disrespectful. A purposeful misrepresentation is probably always disrespectful, but there we are discussing intent.

No dodge, there is a distinct difference between 'belief' and philosophical arguments where Rea uses 'I think.'

Then why don't you answer the question. Let's start with a very simple one. Do you concede that you misinterpreted the article by Rea that you cited? Did you not realize this when you read his earlier article?

Have a merry Christmas!

[shunyadragon]

No, I have not abused you. I do not personally know any Muslims who are disrespectful toward me as a Christian or toward Christianity in general, 'though I am sure there are are some, perhaps many. Their beliefs about the various doctrines or theologies of the Trinity may indeed be misinterpretations. Could they end up being disrespectful toward Christians based, in part, upon their misinterpretations of Christianity or some of its doctrines, sure they could. Have any Muslims ever done this? I presume so. But a belief or interpretation or misrepresentation in and of itself is simply that, and it is not necessarily disrespectful. A purposeful misrepresentation is probably always disrespectful, but there we are discussing intent.

Have a merry Christmas!

It's a dodge with abusive accusations. You did not answer the question: Another point is that Islam has always considered the Trinity as shirk and clearly polytheism. I guess you consider their belief as misrepresentation and disrespect of Christianity. The philosophical and theological arguments in Islam are very similar to mine.

Accusing me of being disrespectful is abusive. My arguments are similar to the Islamic arguments considering the Trinity polytheistic.

Arguing that the Trinity is polytheistic is not misrepresenting nor disrespectful of Christianity whether I do it or Muslims as they have through their whole history. The arguments are similar.

I am glad you have some amiable Islamic friends.

Happy Winter Solstice, and many joyous longer and longer days!!!

[robrecht]

It's a dodge with abusive accusations. You did not answer the question: Another point is that Islam has always considered the Trinity as shirk and clearly polytheism. I guess you consider their belief as misrepresentation and disrespect of Christianity. The philosophical and theological arguments in Islam are very similar to mine.

Accusing me of being disrespectful is abusive. My arguments are similar to the Islamic arguments considering the Trinity polytheistic.

Arguing that the Trinity is polytheistic is not misrepresenting nor disrespectful of Christianity whether I do it or Muslims as they have through their whole history. The arguments are similar.

I am glad you have some amiable Islamic friends.

Happy Winter Solstice, and many joyous longer and longer days!!!

When you say, for example, that the Jews cursed themselves, I consider that disrespectful. Is that what you are referring to? Here I merely noted that you are having a a great deal of difficulty understanding my answer to your question, when you started saying that I was making an abusive accusation. Maybe if you tried asking a more specific question, because I clearly do not think that all of Islam disrespectful toward Christians. Maybe if you cited a specific text, I would be able to answer whether I consider it to be a misinterpretation or misrepresentation or disrespectful.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question from yesterday morning as to whether or not you still agree with Rea. I have asked you this question several different ways and yet you have not even tried to answer.

[shunyadragon]

When you say, for example, that the Jews cursed themselves, I consider that disrespectful. Is that what you are referring to? Here I merely noted that you are having a a great deal of difficulty understanding my answer to your question, when you started saying that I was making an abusive accusation. Maybe if you tried asking a more specific question, because I clearly do not think that all of Islam disrespectful toward Christians. Maybe if you cited a specific text, I would be able to answer whether I consider it to be a misinterpretation or misrepresentation or disrespectful.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question from yesterday morning as to whether or not you still agree with Rea. I have asked you this question several different ways and yet you have not even tried to answer.

As I cited you in the previous message concerning my view that the Trinity is poly theistic.

It's a dodge with abusive accusations. You did not answer the question: Another point is that Islam has always considered the Trinity as shirk and clearly polytheism. I guess you consider their belief as misrepresentation and disrespect of Christianity. The philosophical and theological arguments in Islam are very similar to mine.

Accusing me of being disrespectful is abusive. My arguments are similar to the Islamic arguments considering the Trinity polytheistic.

Arguing that the Trinity is polytheistic is not misrepresenting nor disrespectful of Christianity whether I do it or Muslims as they have through their whole history. The arguments are similar.

I am glad you have some amiable Islamic friends.

Happy Winter Solstice, and many joyous longer and longer days!!!

[robrecht]

As I cited you in the previous message concerning my view that the Trinity is poly theistic.

It's a dodge with abusive accusations. You did not answer the question: Another point is that Islam has always considered the Trinity as shirk and clearly polytheism. I guess you consider their belief as misrepresentation and disrespect of Christianity. The philosophical and theological arguments in Islam are very similar to mine.

Accusing me of being disrespectful is abusive. My arguments are similar to the Islamic arguments considering the Trinity polytheistic.

Arguing that the Trinity is polytheistic is not misrepresenting nor disrespectful of Christianity whether I do it or Muslims as they have through their whole history. The arguments are similar.

I am glad you have some amiable Islamic friends.

Happy Winter Solstice, and many joyous longer and longer days!!!

There actually is not even a question here. You made a poor 'guess' at what you thought might be my attitude toward the views of Muslims toward Christianity and I corrected your guess as best I could. I have known and worked with a few Muslims but do not know much about the Qur'an or Islamic theology so I should and will do some research and get back to you if I find anything interesting to add. In the meantime it seems rather silly for you to keep repeating the same guess about my attitude toward Islamic beliefs about Christianity.

You clearly do not want to answer any of my questions about the Trinitarian views of Rea, which also seems at odds with your earlier commitment to not abandon the discussion, but I will again wish you a happy solstice and merry Christmas.

[shunyadragon]

There actually is not even a question here. You made a poor 'guess' at what you thought might be my attitude toward the views of Muslims toward Christianity and I corrected your guess as best I could. I have known and worked with a few Muslims but do not know much about the Qur'an or Islamic theology so I should and will do some research and get back to you if I find anything interesting to add. In the meantime it seems rather silly for you to keep repeating the same guess about my attitude toward Islamic beliefs about Christianity.

You clearly do not want to answer any of my questions about the Trinitarian views of Rea, which also seems at odds with your earlier commitment to not abandon the discussion, but I will again wish you a happy solstice and merry Christmas.

It is not an attitude. It is the same as my interpretation. In Islam shirk is the interpretation that the Trinity is polytheism.

There really is no dialogue possible if you persist in the foolishness that my interpretation is some how a misrepresentation and disrespectful of traditional Christianity. Islam makes the same interpretation of Trinity.

We remain, of course, at an Impasse over this, so what's new?!?!?!

[Cow Poke]

There actually is not even a question here.

You have the patience of Job on downers.

[Cerebrum123]

I am sure they are, but your dodging the issue: Another point is that Islam has always considered the Trinity as shirk and clearly polytheism. I guess you consider their belief as misrepresentation and disrespect of Christianity.

I am not sure what he 'believes,' His articles deal with philosophical arguments.

Well, I'm guessing when he deals with those arguments he puts his own beliefs and argues for them. That's kind of the point.

[Cerebrum123]

It is not an attitude. It is the same as my interpretation. In Islam shirk is the interpretation that the Trinity is polytheism.

There really is no dialogue possible if you persist in the foolishness that my interpretation is some how a misrepresentation and disrespectful of traditional Christianity. Islam makes the same interpretation of Trinity.

We remain, of course, at an Impasse over this, so what's new?!?!?!

So, do you also think that Mary is a part of the Trinity?

[robrecht]

It is not an attitude. It is the same as my interpretation. In Islam shirk is the interpretation that the Trinity is polytheism.

There really is no dialogue possible if you persist in the foolishness that my interpretation is some how a misrepresentation and disrespectful of traditional Christianity. Islam makes the same interpretation of Trinity.

We remain, of course, at an Impasse over this, so what's new?!?!?!

If dialogue is not possible it is, at least in part, because you are insisting that I consider misinterpretations or interpretations to be disrespectful, but I have told you that is not my view. You choose not to believe what I have said; you 'don't buy it', in your words. Likewise, if someone sincerely expresses their monotheistic belief in one God and only one God, if you want to have respectful dialogue with them about their religious faith and yours, you should respect their expression of faith. Just because you interpret the doctrine of the Trinity as polytheism, that doesn't mean that they understand the Trinity to be polytheism. They obviously do not, otherwise they would not be affirming their monotheistic belief in one God. Assuming your interpretation of the Trinity must be their interpretation of the Trinity would not be respectful religious dialogue. I do believe we should allow people to define their own religious faith as they see fit if we then want to have respectful dialogue. I don't think this is foolish, but wise, and respectful of others and their beliefs.

[shunyadragon]

So, do you also think that Mary is a part of the Trinity?

As far as the Roman Church is concerned Mary is born without sin and worthy of worship as an intermediary between God and humanity as the 'Mother of God.' Yes, some Islamic scholars, and yes your citation of the Koran, include the problem of Mary for good reason, but I believe that Islam considers the Trinity itself to be polytheistic without Mary based on Koran scripture.

Source: http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/trinity.htm

'The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers the like of whom had passed away before him . . . O people of the Book - stress not in your religion other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of a people who went astray before you.' (Surat al-Ma'ida, 75)

And again:
'O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, nor utter anything concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say 'Three'. Desist, it will be better for you. God is only One God. . . . The Messiah would never have scorned to be a slave of God.' (Surat al-Nisa, 171-2)

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

If dialogue is not possible it is, at least in part, because you are insisting that I consider misinterpretations or interpretations to be disrespectful, but I have told you that is not my view. You choose not to believe what I have said; you 'don't buy it', in your words. Likewise, if someone sincerely expresses their monotheistic belief in one God and only one God, if you want to have respectful dialogue with them about their religious faith and yours, you should respect their expression of faith. Just because you interpret the doctrine of the Trinity as polytheism, that doesn't mean that they understand the Trinity to be polytheism. They obviously do not, otherwise they would not be affirming their monotheistic belief in one God. Assuming your interpretation of the Trinity must be their interpretation of the Trinity would not be respectful religious dialogue. I do believe we should allow people to define their own religious faith as they see fit if we then want to have respectful dialogue. I don't think this is foolish, but wise, and respectful of others and their beliefs.

I never asserted that Christian believe the Trinity is polytheistic.

[robrecht]

I never asserted that Christian believe the Trinity is polytheistic.

I didn't say you did, but those who do not believe the Trinity to be polytheism are, by definition, not polytheistic in their beliefs. All those who proclaim faith in only one God are, by definition, monotheists.

[shunyadragon]

I didn't say you did, but those who do not believe the Trinity to be polytheism are, by definition, not polytheistic in their beliefs. All those who proclaim faith in only one God are, by definition, monotheists.

The are monotheists, by their own belief, and not by definition. Moslems and I disagree that the Trinity by definition is monotheistic.

Read you post again.

[robrecht]

The are monotheists, by their own belief, and not by definition. Moslems and I disagree that the Trinity by definition is monotheistic.

Read you post again.

By definition, those who believe in one God and only one God are monotheists.

Monotheism: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monotheism