The Internet is Destroying the LDS Church

[Cow Poke]

That is the risk you incur when you derogate as "just plain goofy" what another poster stated in good faith.

Let's look at the context, Jeff..... here's the exchange:

If you aren't bashing LDSism in the hope that you can make a sale for your brand of Christianity, then why ARE you bashing it?

That's just plain goofy.

The notion that I would in ANY way "make a sale" for my "brand of Christianity" is, indeed, just plain goofy, and I don't believe it was stated "in good faith".

But I apologize for saying "I see no value in discussions with you" - that was wrong of me. There are times I learn things from you, or otherwise find discussions with you "worth something".

[NRA-Jeff]

Have fun, Jeff. I see no value in discussions with you.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, please note the apology in Post 76, Jeff.

[OingoBoingo]

Do you have a low opinion of all religions, but you are more understanding regarding the gullibility of adherents to the ones that are very old?

Just the ones that are so obviously transparent regardless of age.

[NRA-Jeff]

These kids did, yes.

But they themselves held the title of "Elder," right? So what do you think they meant when they said they'd come back with an elder?

[NRA-Jeff]

Let's look at the context, Jeff..... here's the exchange:

Okay, I am willing to look at it, and I am close to apologizing for a comment that may have inadvertently led to hurt feelings on your part.

The notion that I would in ANY way "make a sale" for my "brand of Christianity" is, indeed, just plain goofy, and I don't believe it was stated "in good faith".

I think you should look further back into the context, which is where I was coming from when I built upon the car salesman analogy. The issue was CO2's excellent (IMO) advice that

"I think a good rule of a salesman is don't bash or insult the intelligence of the customer assuming that the salesman knows the subject matter better than the customer. When the salesman dismisses the views of the customer and proceeds to lecture the customer on what he things is right, the salesman loses his customer."
For you or BTC or Sparko or anyone else to extrapolate that into an implication that I was accusing you of getting something in return for sharing the gospel, is just reading something into the text that wasn't intended--"eisegesis." I didn't intend it to be taken that literally.

But I apologize for saying "I see no value in discussions with you" - that was wrong of me. There are times I learn things from you, or otherwise find discussions with you "worth something".

And I am sorry if you inferred that I was equating whatever you do in the name of legitimate preaching of the gospel, with a quid pro quo arrangement. That was not even on my mind when I posted.

But now that I think about it, I think one could make the case that what goes on all to often here does involve "payment" for "services" rendered: When a poster mocks, belittles, insults, etc., --i.e., stuff that isn't preaching of the gospel--I wonder if the poster derives some gratification in the process. In which case, one "has his reward," I guess.

[Cow Poke]

But they themselves held the title of "Elder," right? So what do you think they meant when they said they'd come back with an elder?

This was 40 years ago, Jeff -- It's possible they may have said something else, but they were obviously uncomfortable, and wanted to get "whoever" to come back to talk to me. My impression was that they were referring to whoever supervises them, so if they were "Elders" (I keep forgetting you guys have teenage "Elders" ) maybe they were referring to OLDER Elders.

[NRA-Jeff]

This was 40 years ago, Jeff -- It's possible they may have said something else, but they were obviously uncomfortable, and wanted to get "whoever" to come back to talk to me. My impression was that they were referring to whoever supervises them, so if they were "Elders" (I keep forgetting you guys have teenage "Elders" ) maybe they were referring to OLDER Elders.

I was speculating as much, which is why I asked for clarification. They may have said they'd return with their district leader, or zone leader, or assistant to the mission president, or to a leader of the local ward whom they believed had a broader knowledge base regarding the subject.

[Cow Poke]

Okay, I am willing to look at it, and I am close to apologizing for a comment that may have inadvertently led to hurt feelings on your part.

No hurt feelings on my part at all, Jeff -- you don't have that power.

I think you should look further back into the context, which is where I was coming from when I built upon the car salesman analogy. The issue was CO2's excellent (IMO) advice that

"I think a good rule of a salesman is don't bash or insult the intelligence of the customer assuming that the salesman knows the subject matter better than the customer. When the salesman dismisses the views of the customer and proceeds to lecture the customer on what he things is right, the salesman loses his customer."
For you or BTC or Sparko or anyone else to extrapolate that into an implication that I was accusing you of getting something in return for sharing the gospel, is just reading something into the text that wasn't intended--"eisegesis." I didn't intend it to be taken that literally.

We hold Salvation dear, Jeff -- it's not for sale. (And I'm not suggesting that you think it is, either)

And I am sorry if you inferred that I was equating whatever you do in the name of legitimate preaching of the gospel, with a quid pro quo arrangement. That was not even on my mind when I posted.

Cool! No prob.

But now that I think about it, I think one could make the case that what goes on all to often here does involve "payment" for "services" rendered: When a poster mocks, belittles, insults, etc., --i.e., stuff that isn't preaching of the gospel--I wonder if the poster derives some gratification in the process. In which case, one "has his reward," I guess.

I have always known you to be anxious to "pay back" somebody for a perceived insult.

[Cow Poke]

I was speculating as much, which is why I asked for clarification. They may have said they'd return with their district leader, or zone leader, or assistant to the mission president, or to a leader of the local ward whom they believed had a broader knowledge base regarding the subject.

I actually have notes on this in my BoM, but it's in my "packed" library. (One of about 32 boxes) But you got me wondering -- I remember thinking it was an odd title. "Ward something?"

[NRA-Jeff]

I actually have notes on this in my BoM, but it's in my "packed" library. (One of about 32 boxes) But you got me wondering -- I remember thinking it was an odd title. "Ward something?"

Ward Mission Leader: he is the guy from the ward who is called by the bishop to work with and oversee the missionary work within the ward boundaries. He may or may not be more knowledgeable than the FTM's (full-time missionaries) on a given gospel topic, but he is usually a long-time member.

[NRA-Jeff]

No hurt feelings on my part at all, Jeff -- you don't have that power.

If that has always been the case, then I have been carrying an unnecessary burden for years: I thought that I had said something, early on, that had caused your feelings to be hurt. I guess my guilty conscience was unjustified.

I have always known you to be anxious to "pay back" somebody for a perceived insult.

If by "anxious" you mean "ready, willing, and able" to hit back after first being blindsided or sucker-punched or otherwise attacked*, then I suppose I am guilty as charged.





*or seeing someone else (mis)treated that way

[Cow Poke]

If that has always been the case,

Back in the old days, you used to get me riled. Then I began to see how you operate.

then I have been carrying an unnecessary burden for years: I thought that I had said something, early on, that had caused your feelings to be hurt. I guess my guilty conscience was unjustified.

Yeah, unjustified, to say the least.

If by "anxious" you mean "ready, willing, and able" to hit back after first being blindsided or sucker-punched or otherwise attacked*, then I suppose I am guilty as charged.

Yeah, Peter was like that, too --- prior to the Resurrection.

[Bill the Cat]

Ward Mission Leader: he is the guy from the ward who is called by the bishop to work with and oversee the missionary work within the ward boundaries. He may or may not be more knowledgeable than the FTM's (full-time missionaries) on a given gospel topic, but he is usually a long-time member.

My good friend Kirk does that job.

[Cow Poke]

If you aren't bashing LDSism in the hope that you can make a sale for your brand of Christianity, then why ARE you bashing it?

I'm guessing you're using the Mormon definition of "Bash", since the Dictionary version is "to strike with a crushing or smashing blow".