Originally posted by Sen McGlinn
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Shalom!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the world religion of Judaism in general and also its relationship to Christianity. This forum is generally for theists only. Non-theists (eg, atheistic Jews) may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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The New Testament is Anti-Semitic
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI was unable to find a reference that provided sufficient clarification of the case. The best I could do was state it was my 'understanding,' and I still have not been able to find a source with a specific clarification. As with all dialogues I am perfectly willing to be corrected based on reliable sources, and continue the dialogue.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI do not know the languages, but I will assume the translation is accurate. Do you understand Arabic or Farsi sufficient to understand the translation?- literary
under a curse.
"the Angel of Death walks this accursed house"
synonyms: cursed, damned, doomed, condemned, ill-fated, ill-omened, jinxedantonyms: blessed"he and his line are accursed"
- informal dated
used to express strong dislike of or anger toward someone or something.
"those accursed books!"
synonyms: hateful, detestable, loathsome, foul, abominable, damnable,antonyms: pleasantodious, obnoxious, despicable, horrible, horrid, ghastly, awful, dreadful, terrible
Origin, Middle English: past participle of obsolete accurse, from a- (expressing intensity) + curse.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C....0.6FbMc0z-kIAאָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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- literary
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostDo you mean only the first is regarded as sacred Baha'i scripture, but the others are still genuine quotes? Or that the latter quotes are inauthentic in some way? Or something else perhaps?
These canonical works are not all of equal rank: the words of Baha'u'llah are the creative word, while Abdu'l-Baha's expositions (which can be very free in bring in biblical or quranic or scientific material), are an authoritative guide to the meaning of the creative word, as Abdu'l-Baha himself embodies that meaning. He is "the Exemplar." Shoghi Effendi is the authorised interpreter in a narrower, textual sense.
I will pass over text criticism, except to note that for anyone studying NT source criticism and early church, a study of the early Bahai community could be very illuminating. You can see how texts are transmitted and corrupted, and restored or discarded, how the ethos of the networks that transmit a text influence the way it is read, and so forth.
Then there are translations; naturally they vary in quality, and individual translators have their foibles. And then the editors of entire texts, and of compilations. Some editors corrupt a text, adding their own ideas into it. Most compilation editors and secondary editors are not aware of the authenticity issues and therefore mix, or quote, authentic and inauthentic texts.
As I recall, your sources were The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, and Foundations of World Unity. The first of these is an edited and corrupted version of what Bahai call "pilgrims' notes." Abdu'l-Baha spoke in Persian or Arabic, an interpreter gave an English or French interpretation, people made notes in longhand or shorthand, the notes were worked up into running text, and published in journals such as Star of the West, or circulated in typescript. Then an editor, in this case Howard McNutt, collected the various reports and worked them up again, raising the literary level and inserting his own ideas, which are sometimes directly opposed to those of Abdu'l-Baha.
Much the same applies to two other volumes of talks of Abdu'l-Baha: Abdu'l-Baha in London and Paris Talks.
However, when Abdu'l-Baha spoke in Persian, notes were often taken in Persian, which he checked and corrected before allowing them to be released. These are therefore canonical. They were published in Bahai Journals, and have been collected in a 3-volume set known as Khatabaat, or Khetabaat (talks) of Abdu'l-Baha. The first volume of the set bears Abdu'l-Baha's imprimatur. I have begun to translate these in a blog, Abdu'l-Baha Speaks
https://abdulbahatalks.wordpress.com/
These translations are my first try, which others will correct, so eventually we will have authentic English versions of many of the talks that are reported in these three English volumes, and some that have not previously been known in European languages.
Baha'u'llah and the New Era was written by Esslemont, who discussed its first chapters with Abdu'l-Baha. He used and cited a mixture of authentic canon and pilgrims' notes, and in one case mistook a newspaper editor's words for those of Abdu'l-Baha. But his book became a basic "primer" and has been translated into many languages, so subsequent editors and publication committees have done their best to improve on it. However their own knowledge was not always adequate, and a text prepared by a committee or a sequence of editors easily becomes incoherent. Esslemont knew his audience, whereas the current edition seems to be written for nobody in particular.
Foundations of World Unity is a compilation, which mixes authentic and inauthentic originals and later, corrupted, versions. Because there is nothing there that is not available elsewhere, there is no reason to use it at all.Last edited by Sen McGlinn; 11-20-2014, 01:39 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis all fine and nice, but it does not reflect the reality of the historical use of the NT in Christianity, particularly in Europe.
It is not only Hitler and Martin Luther, but the whole history of Christianity since Constantine. I acknowledge that many are interpreting the NT differently in recent history. but your neglecting the facts that it a long term endemic problem in Christianity based on NT citations, and in places remains a problem today.
Your references refer outside the basic issue, which is anti-Jewish slaughter, ethnic cleansing, persecution and prejudice in Christian history against specifically Jews in Christian history. The question is not whether your opinion as to whether it was justified or not. It is a fact of history that this view dominated European Christian history up until the mid twentieth century. The wide spread 'Passion plays' in Europe is a good witness to the problem, and is still a problem and issue in some paces like in Eastern Europe.
Again and again we are not talking about the broader problem of antisemitism. The issue is anti-Judaism. The fact is the Christians did use the references in the NT to justify anti-Jewish, slaughter, ethnic cleansing and persecution for 2,000 years. Facts are facts, your opinion as to whether the NT is to blame or not does not change history.
Yes slavery is another unfortunate issue, but at present the OT is not an issue in my argument,
Yeah, justification of slavery
So yeah I do think it's mostly irrelevant that Gentiles cherrypicked negative bits of the NT and ignored what it did say about loving enemies, being harmless, not hating Jews even if they are enemies of the Gospel.
Without Christianity there's plenty out there to twist into something bad against Jews. Constantine's continued paganism, Hindu Aryanism. From the looks of recent posts, even Baha'i ideas that Jews brought curses on themselves.
Jews and Gentiles have always fought and probably will until the end, they don't need an NT or anything special to do it, that's the fact you aren't acknowledging.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostI acknowledge history, but facts remain that Gentiles have had a problem with Judaism since Jews existed, they've been killing each other for several thousands of years. Abraham fighting Kedorlaomer, Pharaoh fighting Jews, Jews fighting Canaanites, Babylonians fighting Jews, Jews and Sassanids fighting Christians, the Church fighting Jews, Jews fighting Palestinians...
So yeah I do think it's mostly irrelevant that Gentiles cherrypicked negative bits of the NT and ignored what it did say about loving enemies, being harmless, not hating Jews even if they are enemies of the Gospel.
Without Christianity there's plenty out there to twist into something bad against Jews. Constantine's continued paganism, Hindu Aryanism. From the looks of recent posts, even Baha'i ideas that Jews brought curses on themselves.
Jews and Gentiles have always fought and probably will until the end, they don't need an NT or anything special to do it, that's the fact you aren't acknowledging.Last edited by robrecht; 11-20-2014, 10:30 PM.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostYes, I saw that. What is the underlying Arabic (Farsi?) term and form used here for 'accursed'?
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Originally posted by Sen McGlinn View PostThere's no point in asking Shunydragon for sources, as I never made any such claim, and the Universal House of Justice does not have any authority as interpreter of Baha'i scripture either. So it's the case of which of two zeros is the greater.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBy the way, does the Universal House of Justice agree that it has no authority to interpret Baha'i scriptures?
But I fear we are getting rather far from the article on anti-semitism in the NT. I think the article makes a good case, which could have been stronger had the author used the text-critical approach to 1 Corinthians 2:13-16. The NT taken as a whole is rather pro-semitic than anti-semitic, and the same could be said of some of the Church Fathers. What has Athens to do with Jerusalem? On the other hand, I think the NT could be taken to task for an unfair presentation of the Pharisees.
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Originally posted by paramount View PostYou would be amazed at the amount of negative language from Baha'u'llah in Baha'i writings. There are instances where he calls those who deny him and his enemies pigs, dogs, and donkeys amongst a range of other titles.
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Originally posted by Sen McGlinn View PostYes, absolutely.
Originally posted by Sen McGlinn View PostTo quote one of their statements:
Originally posted by Sen McGlinn View PostBut I fear we are getting rather far from the article on anti-semitism in the NT. I think the article makes a good case, which could have been stronger had the author used the text-critical approach to 1 Corinthians 2:13-16. The NT taken as a whole is rather pro-semitic than anti-semitic, and the same could be said of some of the Church Fathers. What has Athens to do with Jerusalem? On the other hand, I think the NT could be taken to task for an unfair presentation of the Pharisees.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYour negative prerogative needs explanation or sources otherwise it is simple trashing others without explanation gets you nowhere. I have adequately explained the use of accursed, IF YOU READ THE WHOLE CITATION, and not one line. The issue of the improper use of anti-Semitism by Robrecht was also address.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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