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The New Testament is Anti-Semitic

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post

    It's not an OT or NT problem, it's a human problem.
    It is not an OT problem and it is not simply a human problem. It is definitely a problem in the NT, historically in Christianity and Islam. Citing OT texts about the conflicts of the ancients is meaningless. Specifically antisemitism is a more recent anti-Jewish hatred in Christianity and Islam.

    Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html



    Martin Luther and 'The Jews and Their Lies'

    I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.

    * * *
    He did not call them Abraham's children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today.

    What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

    First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly * and I myself was unaware of it * will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

    Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

    Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

    Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

    Fifth, I advise that safe*conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

    Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

    Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      It is not an OT problem and it is not simply a human problem. It is definitely a problem in the NT, historically in Christianity and Islam. Citing OT texts about the conflicts of the ancients is meaningless. Specifically antisemitism is a more recent anti-Jewish hatred in Christianity and Islam.
      Gentiles and Jews have been hating on each other ever since Ishmael teased Isaac, religions with mostly Gentile adherents other than Christianity have come and gone and there's always been an excuse for hatred between the two, so it's naive to think that the NT is the root of it all.

      Besides, verses like these in the NT warn Gentiles not to be hateful of Jews, so the fact remains that the NT isn't any more antisemitic than the OT which uses a lot harsher words for Jews strayed from God:
      Source: KJV

      Romans 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

      © Copyright Original Source


      Thus again, that people like Luther have cherrypicked from the NT as an excuse for antisemitism isn't an NT problem, it's a human problem, this happens in all religions. It's simply more glaring with Christianity since it's had such power and control for centuries, and because it had more adherents than any other. If Christianity never came along and much of the Gentile world accepted the OT then you'd probably see many Gentiles twist the OT to say that Jews are evil harlots and Gentiles are God's chosen based on verses like Isaiah 11:10.

      Heck Jews even accuse each other of being antisemites, where Ultra-Orthodox like Neturei Karta oppose Zionism and are accused of hating Jews, and the religious accuse secular Jews of trying to destroy Judaism.
      Source: ADL

      The black-garbed Jews who appear in support of anti-Israel and even anti-Semitic events are known as “Neturei Karta.” -Source

      © Copyright Original Source


      And if we insist on blaming books, then we can argue the Vedas are responsible for antisemitism as well, especially since Nazi Aryanism and even the swastika came straight out of Hindu not Christian theologies:
      Source: Times of Israel

      According to the survey 19% of Hindus hold anti-Semitic beliefs. At least one-fourth of the Hindu respondents were aware of the Holocaust. Amongst those who had heard of the Holocaust, 48% considered the number of Jewish victims to be greatly exaggerated, and 11% considered the Holocaust to be a myth. -Source

      © Copyright Original Source


      So yeah, I don't see any valid basis for your argument, even though it is convenient to blame the NT.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
        Gentiles and Jews have been hating on each other ever since Ishmael teased Isaac, religions with mostly Gentile adherents other than Christianity have come and gone and there's always been an excuse for hatred between the two, so it's naive to think that the NT is the root of it all.

        Besides, verses like these in the NT warn Gentiles not to be hateful of Jews, so the fact remains that the NT isn't any more antisemitic than the OT which uses a lot harsher words for Jews strayed from God:
        Source: KJV

        Romans 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

        © Copyright Original Source


        Thus again, that people like Luther have cherrypicked from the NT as an excuse for antisemitism isn't an NT problem, it's a human problem, this happens in all religions. It's simply more glaring with Christianity since it's had such power and control for centuries, and because it had more adherents than any other. If Christianity never came along and much of the Gentile world accepted the OT then you'd probably see many Gentiles twist the OT to say that Jews are evil harlots and Gentiles are God's chosen based on verses like Isaiah 11:10.

        Heck Jews even accuse each other of being antisemites, where Ultra-Orthodox like Neturei Karta oppose Zionism and are accused of hating Jews, and the religious accuse secular Jews of trying to destroy Judaism.
        Source: ADL

        The black-garbed Jews who appear in support of anti-Israel and even anti-Semitic events are known as “Neturei Karta.” -Source

        © Copyright Original Source


        And if we insist on blaming books, then we can argue the Vedas are responsible for antisemitism as well, especially since Nazi Aryanism and even the swastika came straight out of Hindu not Christian theologies:
        Source: Times of Israel

        According to the survey 19% of Hindus hold anti-Semitic beliefs. At least one-fourth of the Hindu respondents were aware of the Holocaust. Amongst those who had heard of the Holocaust, 48% considered the number of Jewish victims to be greatly exaggerated, and 11% considered the Holocaust to be a myth. -Source

        © Copyright Original Source


        So yeah, I don't see any valid basis for your argument, even though it is convenient to blame the NT.
        You actually missed the point and the context of my first statements, and chose to cherry pick quotes and accuss others of cherry picking. I said that the NT is not necessarily antisemitic, and you cannot dodge the fact that antisemitism is an inherent problem in the history of Christianity since Constantine, and the source is their view is the NT. I can parade the evidence all the way up until recently and over the centuries of the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and obvious antisemitic views within Christianity even citations by Billy Graham. You may continue to accuse them of cherry picking, but you're accusing all the history of Christianity of cherry picking and it goes nowhere..

        The problems in the OT, Hinduism (Hinduism never actively slaughtered, and ethnic cleansed Jews) and Hitler bent cross, are not the issue. The problem is an intense history of antisemitism in Christianity up until recently based on the NT.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-17-2014, 11:15 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          If the NT isn't necessarily antisemitic then I don't know what you meant by "the problem is in the NT."

          No one denies Christianity was present, but since antisemitism has been an inherent problem among Gentiles ever since there were such a thing as Jews, then to place blame on whatever banner they happen to march under at any point in history -- whether it favors Osiris, Baal, or Apollo -- is largely a red herring. That one particular religion is dominant among Gentiles when antisemitism is apparent, if antisemitism has been a problem all along, isn't saying much about the religion. It is saying something about Gentiles who will twist whatever's popular into an excuse for antisemitism.

          And Hindu ideas of Aryanism were most definitely adapted by Nazis to justify ethnic cleansing, repackaged along with Neopaganism into a state religion of Positive Christianity. To ignore the role of Hinduism and place all blame on Christianity is a double standard and factually inaccurate as well.

          But like I said I'm not sure what your point is.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
            If the NT isn't necessarily antisemitic then I don't know what you meant by "the problem is in the NT."

            No one denies Christianity was present, but since antisemitism has been an inherent problem among Gentiles ever since there were such a thing as Jews, then to place blame on whatever banner they happen to march under at any point in history -- whether it favors Osiris, Baal, or Apollo -- is largely a red herring. That one particular religion is dominant among Gentiles when antisemitism is apparent, if antisemitism has been a problem all along, isn't saying much about the religion. It is saying something about Gentiles who will twist whatever's popular into an excuse for antisemitism.

            And Hindu ideas of Aryanism were most definitely adapted by Nazis to justify ethnic cleansing, repackaged along with Neopaganism into a state religion of Positive Christianity. To ignore the role of Hinduism and place all blame on Christianity is a double standard and factually inaccurate as well.
            Lets change the term in the actual problem in Christian history as distinctly anti-Jewish persecution, ethnic cleansing and the slaughter of Jews in history from Constantine to the 20th century to the citations in the NT. Focusing on the subject more specifically avoides the higher fog index of what may be called anti-semitism in a broader vaguer context..

            Actually no, anti-Jewish has not been a problem in Hinduism and the OT. It is specifically related to citations in the NT that were interpreted throughout Christian history as anti-Jewish in the persecution, ethnic cleansing and the slaughter of Jews.

            This clarifies the view that the NT is not necessarily anti-semitic.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-17-2014, 04:17 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Lets change the term in the actual problem in Christian history as distinctly anti-Jewish persecution, ethnic cleansing and the slaughter of Jews in history from Constantine to the 20th century to the citations in the NT. Focusing on the subject more specifically avoides the higher fog index of what may be called anti-semitism in a broader vaguer context..

              Actually no, anti-Jewish has not been a problem in Hinduism and the OT. It is specifically related to citations in the NT that were interpreted throughout Christian history as anti-Jewish in the persecution, ethnic cleansing and the slaughter of Jews.

              This clarifies the view that the NT is not necessarily anti-semitic.
              I wouldn't say interpreted, manipulated is the more proper term. Nazis manipulated Hindu, Christian, and Neopagan theologies to form an Aryanist hybrid state religion against Jews.

              That still doesn't show that there's anything in the NT that's not said in the OT. I can twist stuff around too in order to make it sound like all Jews are damned and Gentiles are chosen:
              Source: KJV

              Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

              Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

              © Copyright Original Source


              Like I said, all that shows is that various Gentiles in history have cherrypicked the Bible to make it say what they want, it doesn't mean that the Bible is antisemitic or anti-Jewish.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                I wouldn't say interpreted, manipulated is the more proper term. Nazis manipulated Hindu, Christian, and Neopagan theologies to form an Aryanist hybrid state religion against Jews.

                That still doesn't show that there's anything in the NT that's not said in the OT. I can twist stuff around too in order to make it sound like all Jews are damned and Gentiles are chosen:
                Source: KJV

                Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

                Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

                © Copyright Original Source


                Like I said, all that shows is that various Gentiles in history have cherrypicked the Bible to make it say what they want, it doesn't mean that the Bible is antisemitic or anti-Jewish.
                It shows that the history of Christianity is dominately anti-Jewish since Constantine based on the New Testament. The death of millions over the millennia is a witness to this and the documents of the Churches.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-17-2014, 09:22 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  It shows that the history of Christianity is dominately anti-Jewish since Constantine based on the New Testament. The death of millions over the millennia is a witness to this and the documents of the Churches.
                  You're still arguing that people can twist anything to suit their own agendas, sure, we agree. Like much anti-Jewishness of Nazis was based on twisting of Hindu concepts that had nothing to do with Christianity.

                  If antisemitism appeared out of nowhere with Christianity you may have a point, but it's been with Gentiles from Egyptians, Babylonians, Seleucids, Romans...this is a Gentile problem not a religious problem.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                    You're still arguing that people can twist anything to suit their own agendas, sure, we agree. Like much anti-Jewishness of Nazis was based on twisting of Hindu concepts that had nothing to do with Christianity.
                    Hitler may have done this, but it is not the issue. You have hundreds of years of slaughter, ethnic cleansing, and persecution that have nothing to do with Hitler. Please read Martin Luther's Essay. Hitler followed it to the letter. Hitler could not have achieved what he did without the cooperation and involvement of the German people, who have a long history of anti-Jewish pogroms.

                    If antisemitism appeared out of nowhere with Christianity you may have a point, but it's been with Gentiles from Egyptians, Babylonians, Seleucids, Romans...this is a Gentile problem not a religious problem.
                    Back again the problem is anti-Jewish, and not the broader foggier antisemitism. I already said, '. . . the NT is not necessarily antisemitic.' The problem specifically 'anti-Jewish.' You're ducking the real problem. AGAIN IT IS NOT ANTISEMITISM in the broader context. The references in the Bible are not antisemetic, they are 'anti-Jewish.'
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Hitler may have done this, but it is not the issue. You have hundreds of years of slaughter, ethnic cleansing, and persecution that have nothing to do with Hitler. Please read Martin Luther's Essay. Hitler followed it to the letter. Hitler could not have achieved what he did without the cooperation and involvement of the German people, who have a long history of anti-Jewish pogroms.
                      Luther cited NT and OT, he could have skipped the NT and cited OT verses like Jeremiah 3 calling Jews treacherous harlots. In fact it's the OT that calls for destruction of Jews by Gentile forces like Babylon, not the NT. The NT tells us to love and pray for enemies, be harmless as doves, and not arrogant against Jews as I cited from Romans 11.

                      If you want to argue that Luther and Hitler saw themselves as Gentile Nebuchadnezzars doing God's work of punishing Jews as an idea they got from the OT I'd say that's possible, but nothing in the NT instructs Gentiles to act that way.

                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Back again the problem is anti-Jewish, and not the broader foggier antisemitism. I already said, '. . . the NT is not necessarily antisemitic.' The problem specifically 'anti-Jewish.' You're ducking the real problem. AGAIN IT IS NOT ANTISEMITISM in the broader context. The references in the Bible are not antisemetic, they are 'anti-Jewish.'
                      Antisemitism can be against Jewishness for racial, cultural, or religious reasons. I'm not sure what the difference is unless you are just trying to say it's not against all Semites of the Middle East. Which of course we should all know that the modern usage is applied to Jews only.

                      And again I'm not ducking that many Christians have been antisemitic, but first Gentiles have been that way ever since there were Jews, second there's no basis to pin any significant blame on the NT for reasons stated.

                      If anything we've seen the OT inform Gentiles on treatment of Jews, much as the OT was used to justify slavery in recent centuries.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                        Luther cited NT and OT, he could have skipped the NT and cited OT verses like Jeremiah 3 calling Jews treacherous harlots. In fact it's the OT that calls for destruction of Jews by Gentile forces like Babylon, not the NT. The NT tells us to love and pray for enemies, be harmless as doves, and not arrogant against Jews as I cited from Romans 11.
                        This all fine and nice, but it does not reflect the reality of the historical use of the NT in Christianity, particularly in Europe.

                        If you want to argue that Luther and Hitler saw themselves as Gentile Nebuchadnezzars doing God's work of punishing Jews as an idea they got from the OT I'd say that's possible, but nothing in the NT instructs Gentiles to act that way.
                        It is not only Hitler and Martin Luther, but the whole history of Christianity since Constantine. I acknowledge that many are interpreting the NT differently in recent history. but your neglecting the facts that it a long term endemic problem in Christianity based on NT citations, and in places remains a problem today.



                        Antisemitism can be against Jewishness for racial, cultural, or religious reasons. I'm not sure what the difference is unless you are just trying to say it's not against all Semites of the Middle East. Which of course we should all know that the modern usage is applied to Jews only.
                        Your references refer outside the basic issue, which is anti-Jewish slaughter, ethnic cleansing, persecution and prejudice in Christian history against specifically Jews in Christian history. The question is not whether your opinion as to whether it was justified or not. It is a fact of history that this view dominated European Christian history up until the mid twentieth century. The wide spread 'Passion plays' in Europe is a good witness to the problem, and is still a problem and issue in some paces like in Eastern Europe.

                        And again I'm not ducking that many Christians have been antisemitic, but first Gentiles have been that way ever since there were Jews, second there's no basis to pin any significant blame on the NT for reasons stated.
                        Again and again we are not talking about the broader problem of antisemitism. The issue is anti-Judaism. The fact is the Christians did use the references in the NT to justify anti-Jewish, slaughter, ethnic cleansing and persecution for 2,000 years. Facts are facts, your opinion as to whether the NT is to blame or not does not change history.

                        If anything we've seen the OT inform Gentiles on treatment of Jews, much as the OT was used to justify slavery in recent centuries.
                        Yes slavery is another unfortunate issue, but at present the OT is not an issue in my argument,

                        Yeah, justification of slavery
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-18-2014, 12:19 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Shuny, is this an authentic Baha'i source?
                          "... The Jews suffered for 2,000 years for persecuting Christ, "The Son of God," for 3 years; the Moslems and the Arabs persecuted Bahá'u'lláh, "the Father," for 50 years, so they will suffer more and endure greater sufferings. ..."

                          http://bahai-library.com/brown_haifa_notes
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Shuny, is this an authentic Baha'i source?
                            "... The Jews suffered for 2,000 years for persecuting Christ, "The Son of God," for 3 years; the Moslems and the Arabs persecuted Bahá'u'lláh, "the Father," for 50 years, so they will suffer more and endure greater sufferings. ..."

                            http://bahai-library.com/brown_haifa_notes
                            I do not believe it is. Charles Manson broke away and does his own thing. I may check this out a little more.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              I do not believe it is. Charles Manson broke away and does his own thing. I may check this out a little more.
                              Charles Manson? I do hope you check it out a little more than just a throwaway line about Charles Manson.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                How about this, is it a valid Baha'i source?
                                "... ‘The hand of God,’ say the Jews, ‘is chained up.’ Chained up be their own hands; And for that which they have said, they were accursed. ..."

                                http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?

                                Or this?
                                " ... What harm could come from a statement by the Jews that Jesus was also a Manifestation of the Word of God? Have the Christians suffered for their belief in Moses? Have they experienced any loss of religious enthusiasm or witnessed any defeat in their religious belief by declaring that Moses was a Prophet of God, that the Torah was a Book of God and that all the prophets of Israel were prophets of God? It is evident that no loss comes from this. And now it is time for the Jews to declare that Christ was the Word of God, and then this enmity between two great religions will pass away. For two thousand years this enmity and religious prejudice have continued. Blood has been shed, ordeals have been suffered. These few words will remedy the difficulty and unite two great religions. What harm could follow this: that just as the Christians glorify and praise the name of Moses, likewise the Jews should commemorate the name of Christ, declare Him to be the Word of God and consider Him as one of the chosen Messengers of God?"

                                http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/P...120.html.utf8?

                                Or this?
                                Through failing to understand the meaning of the prophecies about the dominion of the Messiah, the Jews rejected Christ. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says:—
                                The Jews still await the coming of the Messiah, and pray to God day and night to hasten His advent. When Jesus came they denounced and slew Him, saying: “This is not the One for Whom we wait. ..."

                                Thus the Jews thought and spoke, for they did not understand the Scriptures nor the glorious truths that were contained in them. The letter they knew by heart, but of the life-giving Spirit they understood not a word.

                                http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BN...170.html.utf8?

                                Or this?
                                The greatest cause of bereavement and disheartening in the world of humanity is ignorance based upon blind imitation. It is due to this that wars and battles prevail; from this cause hatred and animosity arise continually among mankind. Through failure to investigate reality the Jews rejected His Holiness Jesus Christ. They were expecting his coming; by day and night they mourned and lamented, saying, “O God! hasten thou the day of the advent of Christ,” expressing most intense longing for the Messiah but when His Holiness Christ appeared they denied and rejected him, treated him with arrogant contempt, sentenced him to death and finally crucified him. Why did this happen? Because they were blindly following imitations, believing that which had descended to them as a heritage from their fathers and ancestors; tenaciously holding to it and refusing to investigate the reality of Christ. Therefore they were deprived of the bounties of His Holiness whereas if they had forsaken imitations and investigated the reality of the Messiah they would have surely been guided to believing in him.

                                http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/FWU/fwu-22.html.utf8?

                                Or this?
                                This was realized when peoples of all religions, nationalities and dispositions became united in their beliefs and followed Christ in humility, associating in love and brotherhood under the shadow of his divine protection. The Jews, being blind to this and holding to their bigoted imitations, were insolent and arrogant toward His Holiness and crucified him. Had they investigated the reality of Christ they would have beheld his beauty and truth.

                                http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/FWU/fwu-22.html.utf8?

                                Or this perhaps?
                                Consider the symbolical meanings of the Words and teachings of Christ. He said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.” When the Jews heard this, they took it literally and failed to understand the significance of His meaning and teaching. The spiritual truth which Christ wished to convey to them was that the reality of Divinity within Him was like a blessing which had come down from heaven and that he who partook of this blessing should never die. That is to say, bread was the symbol of the perfections which had descended upon Him from God, and he who ate of this bread, or endowed himself with the perfections of Christ, would undoubtedly attain to everlasting life. The Jews did not understand Him, and taking the words literally, said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Had they understood the real meaning of the Holy Book, they would have become believers in Christ. ... Most of the Jews had memorized the texts of the Old Testament and repeated them night and day, but inasmuch as they were ignorant of the meanings, they were deprived of the bounties of Christ.

                                http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/P...136.html.utf8?
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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