Quran: Jesus crucified?

[RBerman]

"If you reach some threshold of good-doing, God will favor you and overlook the times you have done wrong."---This is incorrect

I am sorry for misunderstanding you. How would you characterize the relationship between our behavior and God's favor? I was thinking of Qur'anic passages like these in the first 13 Surahs that link God's favor to human behavior:

Surah 2:25a And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow.

Surah 5:9 Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds [that] for them there is forgiveness and great reward.

Surah 7:7-9 Then We will surely relate [their deeds] to them with knowledge, and We were not [at all] absent. And the weighing [of deeds] that Day will be the truth. So those whose scales are heavy - it is they who will be the successful. And those whose scales are light - they are the ones who will lose themselves for what injustice they were doing toward Our verses.

Surah 9:20-22 The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives are greater in rank in the sight of Allah. And it is those who are the attainers [of success]. Their Lord gives them good tidings of mercy from Him and approval and of gardens for them wherein is enduring pleasure. [They will be] abiding therein forever. Indeed, Allah has with Him a great reward.

Surah 10:26-27 For them who have done good is the best [reward] and extra. No darkness will cover their faces, nor humiliation. Those are companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally. But they who have earned [blame for] evil doings - the recompense of an evil deed is its equivalent, and humiliation will cover them. They will have from Allah no protector. It will be as if their faces are covered with pieces of the night - so dark [are they]. Those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.

Surah 11:111-115 And indeed, each [of the believers and disbelievers] - your Lord will fully compensate them for their deeds. Indeed, He is Acquainted with what they do. So remain on a right course as you have been commanded, [you] and those who have turned back with you [to Allah ], and do not transgress. Indeed, He is Seeing of what you do. And do not incline toward those who do wrong, lest you be touched by the Fire, and you would not have other than Allah any protectors; then you would not be helped. And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember. And be patient, for indeed, Allah does not allow to be lost the reward of those who do good.

Surah 13:20-25 Those who fulfill the covenant of Allah and do not break the contract, And those who join that which Allah has ordered to be joined and fear their Lord and are afraid of the evil of [their] account, And those who are patient, seeking the countenance of their Lord, and establish prayer and spend from what We have provided for them secretly and publicly and prevent evil with good - those will have the good consequence of [this] home - Gardens of perpetual residence; they will enter them with whoever were righteous among their fathers, their spouses and their descendants. And the angels will enter upon them from every gate, [saying], "Peace be upon you for what you patiently endured. And excellent is the final home." But those who break the covenant of Allah after contracting it and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined and spread corruption on earth - for them is the curse, and they will have the worst home.

And so on. Now, obviously I don't know how often those passages are cited in Islamic theology, but on first reading, do you see why it seems to me that the Qur'an puts a great deal of emphasis on God rewarding people based on good behavior?

Differences---Before my conversation with JohnnyP and Pentecost, I was under the impression that Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity. I still feel that the starting premises between our two religions are very different however, the deeper, more spiritual aspects may have similarity or convergence........

Christianity and Islam appear to have many points of formal contact, as well as many areas of material difference. It seems hard to say that the spiritual aspects converge when the defining values are so different.

[siam]

soteriology
Good behavior is important---but Divine Justice is more complex------

God is Most Compassionate, Most Merciful, Most Just.

We need to de-link 2 concepts---earthly blessings/prosperity and adversity from Paradise/Hell.
Though some reward and punishment may occur on earth if God wills, blessings and adversity (on earth) are understood primarily as tests. Reward/punishment is understood as occurring after judgement as Paradise/Hell.

(Divine)Justice----

---Choice/action has 2 components ---use for benefit, restraint from harm.(doing and not doing) For example, A person has strength (a blessing). This strength can be used for benefit (such as helping the weak, elderly, working to provide for family....etc...) but strength must also be restrained from causing harm (such as injury to another, use in bullying, abuse.....etc). Divine Justice must take both these components into account.

---Further, what actions/choices we take is colored by our intentions---sometimes malicious intentions may result in good or some good deed may be unintentional/accidental. We cannot know of another's intentions unless these are verbalized, but in the case of Divine Justice, intentions must be considered in judging actions.

---If our actions are colored by our intentions, then our intentions are colored by our beliefs.
Intentions arising from Tawheed(Unity) are better than those arising from Shirk(Division). (For example, charity done from a belief of superiority of self and inferiority of another is different from one springing from a belief of a brotherhood of humanity in which the other is equally deserving of God's blessings as the self) Divine Justice must also take this into consideration.

to simplify----
God's will = Right belief ,(Tawheed) that promotes right intentions, (Taqwa) that leads to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.

---all 3 factors--belief,intentions and actions are important.

Further----
To make mistakes and learn from them is a necessary part of our growth process. Mistakes (sin) may harm others, but they also harm the self. Repentence and reform pave the way for healing (the self) and opens the door to forgiveness from God. Divine Justice is tempered with Compassion and Mercy.

Reward/Punishment. (Simplified version)
Repentance/reform lead to Paradise, and right belief, right intentions, right actions lead to Paradise.
Rebelliousness (without remorse) leads to Hell.


Destiny----
The Quran treats human beings as (empowered) adults who are capable of taking responsibility and being held accountable. (Therefore, we have been given intelligence, limited free-will and fitra)

a quote from a Jewish Rabbi, Maimonides expresses a somewhat similar sentiment.....
"The only divine plan is that which allows humankind to shape its own destiny"

There is a saying of the Prophet(pbuh) ----(although its level of authenticity is not verified)
"God puts into hellfire only those who refuse to go anywhere else"

[RBerman]

soteriology
Good behavior is important---but Divine Justice is more complex------

God is Most Compassionate, Most Merciful, Most Just.

We need to de-link 2 concepts---earthly blessings/prosperity and adversity from Paradise/Hell.
Though some reward and punishment may occur on earth if God wills, blessings and adversity (on earth) are understood primarily as tests. Reward/punishment is understood as occurring after judgement as Paradise/Hell.

(Divine)Justice----

---Choice/action has 2 components ---use for benefit, restraint from harm.(doing and not doing) For example, A person has strength (a blessing). This strength can be used for benefit (such as helping the weak, elderly, working to provide for family....etc...) but strength must also be restrained from causing harm (such as injury to another, use in bullying, abuse.....etc). Divine Justice must take both these components into account.

---Further, what actions/choices we take is colored by our intentions---sometimes malicious intentions may result in good or some good deed may be unintentional/accidental. We cannot know of another's intentions unless these are verbalized, but in the case of Divine Justice, intentions must be considered in judging actions.

---If our actions are colored by our intentions, then our intentions are colored by our beliefs.
Intentions arising from Tawheed(Unity) are better than those arising from Shirk(Division). (For example, charity done from a belief of superiority of self and inferiority of another is different from one springing from a belief of a brotherhood of humanity in which the other is equally deserving of God's blessings as the self) Divine Justice must also take this into consideration.

to simplify----
God's will = Right belief ,(Tawheed) that promotes right intentions, (Taqwa) that leads to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.

---all 3 factors--belief,intentions and actions are important.

Further----
To make mistakes and learn from them is a necessary part of our growth process. Mistakes (sin) may harm others, but they also harm the self. Repentence and reform pave the way for healing (the self) and opens the door to forgiveness from God. Divine Justice is tempered with Compassion and Mercy.

Reward/Punishment. (Simplified version)
Repentance/reform lead to Paradise, and right belief, right intentions, right actions lead to Paradise.
Rebelliousness (without remorse) leads to Hell.


Destiny----
The Quran treats human beings as (empowered) adults who are capable of taking responsibility and being held accountable. (Therefore, we have been given intelligence, limited free-will and fitra)

a quote from a Jewish Rabbi, Maimonides expresses a somewhat similar sentiment.....
"The only divine plan is that which allows humankind to shape its own destiny"

There is a saying of the Prophet(pbuh) ----(although its level of authenticity is not verified)
"God puts into hellfire only those who refuse to go anywhere else"

I do take your point that the right actions would not be of any value without the right intention. The Bible goes a step further and says that our actions and intentions can never be right enough to qualify us for God's rewards. We don't need a trainer. We need a substitute. God himself became our substitute in the person of Jesus. Because God himself has satisfied his requirements on our behalf, we don't have to wonder whether we are in God's favor we can know for certain what our status is before God, both for now and for eternity.

[siam]

Our paradigms are different.

In Islam all existence has a purpose because creation is deliberate and planned, not accidental. So, there are no mistakes or problems, nothing is overlooked or arbitrary.

If crucifixion is a correction of a problem/inconsistency---then this would not fit well with the Islamic concept of God.

[Pentecost]

Our paradigms are different.

In Islam all existence has a purpose because creation is deliberate and planned, not accidental. So, there are no mistakes or problems, nothing is overlooked or arbitrary.

If crucifixion is a correction of a problem/inconsistency---then this would not fit well with the Islamic concept of God.

[b]

[siam]

@ Pentecost
This how I read ----"God's creation was perfect" but human beings(Adam) ruined it, yet, God already knew this so his plan was the sacrifice all along.
----if so, why choose an arbitrary time for crucifixion?---it would have worked out better if God had "planned" to do this crucifixion during the generation of Prophet Adam or at least the next one---rather than some random time?

Parable---It is an interesting story. There are 2 points that don't fit with the Islamic framework---a) comparing wheat and weeds to humans b) the actions of the devil
a) wheat and weeds.
--The implication that these simply grow---lack of free will.
In Islam---human beings have intelligence and limited free-will and are fully capable of responsibility and accountability
---The idea that there are 2 types of humans, those that are created inherently good (wheat) and those that are inherently bad (weeds)
In Islam---all human beings are created equal and with Fitra.
b) The implication that the devil can do something without anyone being aware or that the devil has the same power to "sow seeds" as the Master.
In Islam---the devil (shaitan) cannot do anything without God being aware/allow---and the only power he has is one that human beings choose to give him.

So if the parable were re-written within an Islamic framework---it would be:-

The Master (God) asked his servants (humanity) to sow wheat (good deeds). Along came the shaitan and asked the Master if he could test the character of his servants. The Master agreed and shaitan mixed some seeds of weed(bad deeds) in with the seeds of wheat. The next day the servants went to plant. Some of them were careful and threw away the weeds, others were careless and planted both the wheat and the weeds. When the plants grew (consequences of their actions), they were filled with remorse and went to pick out the weeds. But, a couple of servants were too lazy and decided not to go (Rebels). After the harvest,(judgement day---accounting for deeds) those that refused to take responsibility were fired (punishment) and those that did were rewarded with a bonus.

Interpretation---In our life on earth, God creates opportunities for us to choose our own destiny.

Yr quotes---
"God's creation was perfect"
"It is wrong headed to think Christians believe God made imperfectly"
"A perfectly holy God deserves perfectly holy worship and obeisance from a free will creature."
---Is perfection/imperfection an important concern for you.....or...Christians in general?

"And if it is perfect in its present stage (even with theft, murder, and rape) then the God who has declared such a thing so is corrupt and his prophets liars."
---a strong statement. How is this statement explained in light of statements in a previous post about resurrection defeating sin and death and bringing about a new creation? (or...more generally, in Christianity?)

[Pentecost]

@ Pentecost
This how I read ----"God's creation was perfect" but human beings(Adam) ruined it, yet, God already knew this so his plan was the sacrifice all along.
----if so, why choose an arbitrary time for crucifixion?---it would have worked out better if God had "planned" to do this crucifixion during the generation of Prophet Adam or at least the next one---rather than some random time?

Abraham was saved not through works but by faith in God's promise. (See Romans 4), so before or after the crucifixion it is irrelevant, why was that time chosen? I believe that it was the optimal time for His plan of redemption to be effacious for the most amount of people.

Parable---It is an interesting story. There are 2 points that don't fit with the Islamic framework---a) comparing wheat and weeds to humans b) the actions of the devil
a) wheat and weeds.
--The implication that these simply grow---lack of free will.
In Islam---human beings have intelligence and limited free-will and are fully capable of responsibility and accountability
---The idea that there are 2 types of humans, those that are created inherently good (wheat) and those that are inherently bad (weeds)
In Islam---all human beings are created equal and with Fitra.

You read to much into the parable. Do you know what those are? They are stories with a narrow focus. It is foolish to read more into them than what is meant. It does not teach that some are good and some are bad, but instead that all would have been good, but the devil caused what would have been a perfect crop of holy people to become mixed with unrepentant sinners. (As you would say, Rebels).

b) The implication that the devil can do something without anyone being aware or that the devil has the same power to "sow seeds" as the Master.
In Islam---the devil (shaitan) cannot do anything without God being aware/allow---and the only power he has is one that human beings choose to give him.

That does not sound far off from my understanding. God knew the devil would do as he did, and allowed it, but did not cause it. God is not the author of sin. But I think it more true to say the devil has power over us unless we take remove it from him. I believe the devil is in a limited way, a tool used by God to test humanity, only necessary because God desires free will, and will be punished because the devil rejects God (which is what sin is), and seeks to harm Him and His creation (but unknowingly serves the King of Kings). Put another way, God does not endorse what the devil does, but utilizes it anyways.

Yr quotes---
"God's creation was perfect"
"It is wrong headed to think Christians believe God made imperfectly"
"A perfectly holy God deserves perfectly holy worship and obeisance from a free will creature."
---Is perfection/imperfection an important concern for you.....or...Christians in general?

I place a high emphasis on it as an individual, you have percieved that correctly; however, there are groups that teach it is possible to reach perfect holiness in this life through the aid of the Holy Spirit (I differ in that I think it will occur in our next life.) but so far as the perfect holiness of God? Denying that is to blaspheme Him. The imperfection of the world is important enough that the doctrine of original sin was formulated.

"And if it is perfect in its present stage (even with theft, murder, and rape) then the God who has declared such a thing so is corrupt and his prophets liars."
---a strong statement. How is this statement explained in light of statements in a previous post about resurrection defeating sin and death and bringing about a new creation? (or...more generally, in Christianity?)

[RBerman]

Our paradigms are different. In Islam all existence has a purpose because creation is deliberate and planned, not accidental. So, there are no mistakes or problems, nothing is overlooked or arbitrary. If crucifixion is a correction of a problem/inconsistency---then this would not fit well with the Islamic concept of God.

Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. Acts 2:32

There is no single Christian doctrine on the abstract question you raise here, except that the Bible is clear that Jesus' crucifixion was part of God's plan. What all Christians agree on is what we find in the Injil: God shockingly incarnated in Jesus Christ, who died and rose again to propitiate God's wrath over sin, so that God would call us his children, with all the love and inheritance that status implies. Such concrete, historical facts must be the starting point before we try to generalize principles about what God is like on a more philosophical level. Human models of the divine must account for all of God's self-revelation, or any satisfaction they give us is irrelevant, or worse, deceitful.

[siam]

The devil---In the Islamic framework, since humanity is held accountable for their choices, the devil has no power over humanity except what humans themselves choose to give. Thus, at Judgement they cannot claim "the devil made me do it". They must accept full responsibility for their choices.

Islam posits that the core Guidance of God---which is Tawheed(Unity)---is consistent throughout time to all peoples. In Surah 2 verse 37, God forgives and promises Prophet Adam (and therefore all humanity) that he will send Guidance to all.

Therefore, interpretations of events (ayah/signs) that concern our concept of God must align with his consistent Guidance of Tawheed (Unity)........unless one wants to posit that God's guidance is arbitrary.....?.....

@Pentecost
Does your tradition take the OT/Torah more seriously than other Christianities?

[Pentecost]

The devil---In the Islamic framework, since humanity is held accountable for their choices, the devil has no power over humanity except what humans themselves choose to give. Thus, at Judgement they cannot claim "the devil made me do it". They must accept full responsibility for their choices.

Agreed. Not the words I would use but I think we describe the same concept.

Islam posits that the core Guidance of God---which is Tawheed(Unity)---is consistent throughout time to all peoples. In Surah 2 verse 37, God forgives and promises Prophet Adam (and therefore all humanity) that he will send Guidance to all.

I do not know of a similar story of Adam in Christianity. He is usually portrayed rather poorly being the first human sinner. There was a similar promise to Noah though, who is also the father of mankind as Adam was.

@Pentecost
Does your tradition take the OT/Torah more seriously than other Christianities?

I do not have extensive experience outside my tradition to compare, but as I've heard it Pentecostals are more likely to cite from the OT than most others. For example, we as an ecstatic tradition quote from 2 Samuel when King David was bringing the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem, it is recorded that he danced for the joy of The Lord every six steps ,or our emphasis on the Holy Spirit not only as an agent of our salvation, but His miraculous workings that He was most noted for prior to the writings of St. Paul.

[siam]

Agreed. Not the words I would use but I think we describe the same concept.

I feel the same way about your comments. It is fascinating to find so much similarity in the generalities. Usually my (few) conversations with Christians follow RBerman's pattern.

Prophets---My understanding is that pretty much all the Prophets in the Torah are portrayed poorly. But then, the function of the Torah and the Quran are possibly different. The Quran uses stories to show ethico-moral principles or give advice/knowledge. So, large chunks of the back stories that are in the Torah are often excluded in the Quran, other times, details are added that highlight the concept or principle being made.

Holy Spirit---Can you explain this concept again (your previous explanation was a bit complicated for me)
Is Holy Spirit God? Is it also an Incarnation? Was Holy Spirit also crucified/resurrected? When did the "workings" of Holy Spirit begin? What does Holy Spirit as "agent of salvation" mean?
If I recall, previously you mentioned healing and such in connection with Holy Spirit---How does this all function within the framework of the Trinity (assuming you are Trinitarian---right?)

[Pentecost]

Prophets---My understanding is that pretty much all the Prophets in the Torah are portrayed poorly. But then, the function of the Torah and the Quran are possibly different. The Quran uses stories to show ethico-moral principles or give advice/knowledge. So, large chunks of the back stories that are in the Torah are often excluded in the Quran, other times, details are added that highlight the concept or principle being made.

The Torah portrays the prophets in a mostly good light; but the people Israel are consistently shown to be idolatrous and defiant.

Holy Spirit---Can you explain this concept again (your previous explanation was a bit complicated for me)
Is Holy Spirit God?

Yes.

Is it also an Incarnation?

No.

Was Holy Spirit also crucified/resurrected?

No.

When did the "workings" of Holy Spirit begin?

The Holy Spirit is eternal and has always existed. The first mentioning of it in Scripture is Genesis 1:2 during creation.

What does Holy Spirit as "agent of salvation" mean?

After Jesus bodily ascended to Heaven, He sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within all Christians, a metaphor might be that Jesus has offered a gift (salvation) and the box the gift comes in is the Holy Spirit, it is not perfect because the Holy Spirit is a person, not an inanimate object but it is close.

If I recall, previously you mentioned healing and such in connection with Holy Spirit---How does this all function within the framework of the Trinity (assuming you are Trinitarian---right?)

The Holy Spirit being God desires for us what God desires for us, and that includes healings, and prophecy, with prophets who had been "filled" by the Holy Spirit being enabled to do such a thing. Miracles while coming from the Trinity do not divide the Trinity at all, that is to say it is irrelevant to the framework of the Trinity.

I am of course Trinitarian, if I was otherwise I would not claim to be an orthodox Christian, nor would I claim RBerman as my brother in Christ.

[siam]

Holy Spirit is God and Holy Spirit is person but Holy spirit is not incarnation = God is a person?

Holy Spirit is God yet not crucified....Who/what is crucified?

Holy Spirit is God and Holy Spirit "dwells" in Christians = pantheism? Are Christians gods?

Trinity is irrelevant in understanding the workings of God? Then why believe in the Trinity?

[Pentecost]

Holy Spirit is God and Holy Spirit is person but Holy spirit is not incarnation = God is a person?

God is three persons.

Holy Spirit is God yet not crucified....Who/what is crucified?

Holy Spirit is God but God is not just the Holy Spirit. God the Son was crucified and incarnated neither God the Father nor God the Spirit were incarnated nor were they crucified.

Holy Spirit is God and Holy Spirit "dwells" in Christians = pantheism?

Closer to panentheism.

Are Christians gods?

No, but we are the adopted sons of God the Father and co-heir (but subservient) to God the Son. We will become what humans were meant to be, which is more than we are now, but less than God is.

Trinity is irrelevant in understanding the workings of God?

Irrelevant in the sense that it doesn't matter which person of God you say has acted, because the three are united.

Then why believe in the Trinity?

Because Scripture tells us of three persons who are God and also tells us there is only one God. The "Trinity" doctrine only describes a Biblical fact. God is more than humans can understand. It is against Christian teaching to deny the Trinity because if we deny that there is one God then we deny the heart of Scripture. If we deny that Jesus is God or that the Holy Spirit is God then we deny either our Scriptures or rationality.

[RBerman]

Trinity is irrelevant in understanding the workings of God? Then why believe in the Trinity?

Many Christians have a fairly rudimentary understanding of the Trinity. They would confess that there is only one God, who exists in three persons-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- which interact with each other and love each other.

Christians with more thorough training on the matter can tell you that with respect to some things, the three persons are identical. They are all equal in glory and power and majesty, etc. But they perform different roles. The Father sent the Son. The Son came to glorify the Father. The Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son to live in the hearts of God's people, binding them spiritually to Christ. And so on. In any detailed system, debates will arise about the fine points, such as whether the Son's subordination to the Father is an eternal matter or only relevant to the time of his earthly incarnation. These quibbles should not consume a lot of time or worry. The big picture is more important, as seen in texts like these in the injil, spoken by Jesus soon after he has miraculously caused a tiny amount of bread to feed a huge crowd:

Or this discussion, which occured in the temple in Jerusalem:

Jesus informed his disciples that after his death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven, the Holy Spirit would come:

And so on; the injil has quite a lot to say about the relationship between the three persons of the one God.