Quran: Jesus crucified?

[Pentecost]

The Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Churches both still exist, but a large par of the Churhes of the East returned to communion (a sort of oneness) with the Catholics fairly recently, and the Oriental are largely considered to be within the bounds of orthodoxy (now a days they are mostly known as "Copts" in Egypt) and while historically divided from the Eastern Orthodox, from where I sit I cannot distinguish between them.

They hold to the New Testament, Old Testament and the Apocrypha. Same as the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. The different Christogies are now commonly seen as close enough to "count" so to say. They hold to the same basics I do.

The Anglicans are Protestant, but largely either "Liberal" meaning they are orthopraxic (act right) but no orthodox (believe right), or they are Catholic in all but name.

I am Evangelical. It refers to Protestants that hold to the Fundamentals of the faith and believe in a powerful need for evangelism (spreading the gospel).

The "emergent church" does not mean much of anything as far as I can tell, it is only a term for the societal changes in Western Christianity so far this century. It is not wholy good nor bad.

On Baptism, more or less. But there is debate on whether it is necessary for salvation, or symbolic of an already existing salvation, or if it should be done to infants, and now much water should be used.

The Catholic Pope makes the claim that Catholicism speaks for God but Protestants typically reject any such notion.

[siam]

Evangelical---My understanding is that Evangelicals are more exclusivist and hold to a more literal interpretation of the Bible. But from your comments you seem comfortable with symbolism/metaphors and with different interpretations (inclusive)...is this because of your tradition of Pentecostalism or is this an individual predisposition?

[Pentecost]

Pentecostals are generally of an even more literalist and conservative view points on matters of Scripture. And indeed, I am very exclusivist and very literal. If Evangelicals are conservative Protestants, then I am a conservative Evangelical, however, I recognize that one does not need to be as conservative as I am, only to hold to the minimums of orthodoxy, and preferably a personal relationship with The Lord Jesus (I am uncertain how necessary that is for salvation. Definitely good for a healthy life). To that end, I mistrust the large Mainline churches (for example) as being too liberal and not taking our resurrected Lord seriously.

I am open to the possibility of certain symbolisms, Chapters 1-2 of Genesis for example, however I personally interpret it as literal. This is done in the spirit of ecumenism, that is seeking a deeper level of unity within Christ's church, which is important to Pentecostalism because a hundred years ago we were a fledgling tradition and usually thrown out of churches and denounced as heretics, now a hundred years later having a significant portion of the world Christian population, we are still reconciliatory, and have even allowed the General Secretary of the World Council of Churches (very liberal organization) to speak at our conferences.

If I am not clear, liberal and conservative refers to how loose or strict one interprets the Scriptures.

[RBerman]

In my opinion, God's love for all humanity as obvious/self-evident.

It sounds like you personally are willing to affirm God's love, but it's not a subject that the Qur'an actually addresses. Do the Hadith?

---The subject that is of more interest, when considering love is, how can humanity love God./reciprocate God's love "Taqwa" is the concept that translates into English as God-awareness or awe of God---and more specifically, the desire to please God (love) and the fear of dissapointing God. A person who has Taqwa is called a mutaqueen. The opening verses of Surah 2 say that the Quran is addressed to the mutaqeen. A mutaqeen will have different degrees of Taqwa (love of God). The highest level of spirituality is called Ihsan and means beautiful actions---love of God (intentions) motivates beautiful actions...this is the highest form of worship. It is understood as worship(in actions/deeds) of God as if you see him, but if not, to know he sees you. The Quran refers to such a person as muhsin.

It's not obvious to me that "awe of God" and "love for God" are the same thing, nor "loving" and "wanting to please." Awe is a concept closely akin to fear. A tornado or elephant stampede has awesome power, and you'd better get out of its way, not because you love it, but because it will mess you up if you don't order your life so as to avoid its consequences. As I read through Surah 2, it's not obvious to me which verses mention anyone loving God. It focuses on the danger of error and the rewards awaiting the obedient.

[siam]

@RBerman
The Quran does talk of "love", the focus of the subject is probably different from Christianity.

For a very in-depth look at this subject see---Love in the Quran by HRH Prince Ghazi (altafsir.com)

For easier reads---you can search for William Chittick -he has short articles on the subject.

or...read....surah 93, surah 55, surah 87......

The Sufis are more interested in the subject of Love---such as Rabia Al-Basri, Ibn Arabi, Hafiz, Rumi...etc (Though it mostly revolves around how we can love God)
Some examples--
"I believe in the religion of Love
whatever direction its caravans may take
for love is my religion, my faith" ---Ibn Arabi

"What Allah said to the rose
and caused it to laugh
in full blown beauty
He said to my heart
and made it a hundred times more beautiful"---Rumi

"If I adore You out of fear of Hell,
Burn me in Hell!
If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.
But if I adore you for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty."---Rabia Al Basri.

Awe---Much is lost in translation. Many concept-words are in Arabic and when translated into English, they sometimes take on Christian-centric implications that do not quite fit right. If you feel awe is incorrect, I am fine with using another word you suggest or the Arabic Taqwa, or simply leaving it open-ended as God-awareness.........

Surah 2---I appreciate your interest in the Quran. Thankyou. This Surah begins by analyzing human nature, then brings up the point that humility and gratitude are the hallmarks of a person of Taqwa and arrogance and pride those of the Rebel (Kafir) and God is most forgiving---story of Adam & Iblis. (the story is explained in more detail in Surah 7 verses 11-25) This is carried over into the stories of the Jewish people and the lessens the new community can learn from them. This is also an early Medina Surah so there is some legal stuff. (it was a time when a new community was being formed---3,4,5 also have legal advice if I remember correctly--this was also a period when there were battles with the Meccans so these themes also come up---Battle of Badr(624CE), battle of Uhud 625CE), battle of the Trench (627CE))

The word "deen" translated as religion is understood as "way of life" and the Quran is Guidance for it, that is, its main purpose is to set up a framework of ethico-moral principles for Guidance. The starting point of all Quranic principles is Tawheed (Unity).

In general, there is a lot of stuff on the subject of Paradise and Hell throughout the Quran.---apparently the polytheists of the region did not have a concept of an afterlife. The juxtaposition of Paradise and Hell consecutively may also serve as a literary device to make people/listeners pay attention......

@Pentecost---Literal, conservative.....are you Young earth creationist (YEC)?

[siam]

@ Pentecost
what meaning/symbolism does the "resurrected Lord" have for you?

[Pentecost]

I am indeed a Young Earth Creationist, although I admit that it is not a necessary belief for salvation.

The resurrection of my Lord Jesus is the heart of Christian theology. If He just died then He would have been another false prophet. Either a liar, a lunatic, or both. Jesus rising from the grave defeated sin and death for all those who believe in Him, and proving Him true, not only His claim that He would rise in three days, but also that He was speaking the truth when He claimed Godhood. He proved the Gospel immeasurably, and showed the first fruit of the new Creation that is yet to come. God is with us, and not only is He with us, He LOVES US! He met death for us; and defeated it. The time will come where death will die and it will be a glorious day.

[RBerman]

The Quran does talk of "love", the focus of the subject is probably different from Christianity. For a very in-depth look at this subject see---Love in the Quran by HRH Prince Ghazi (altafsir.com)

Thanks for the link. Obviously I haven't read the whole book by Ghazi yet. I do see that in his preface (page xxiii) he quotes a hadithby man than to God's love for man. Ghazi does mention that one of God's names, al-Wudud, means "love." With a little research, I see that this word appears in Surah 85:14: "And He is the Forgiving, the Affectionate..." The passage doesn't explain toward whom God is loving, or under what conditions, but it is something at least.

read surah 93, surah 55, surah 87......

Surah 93 is about God's protection of and provision for Muhammad. Surah 55 is about God's work in creation, and the punishment awaiting the wicked, and the rewards awaiting the obedient. Surah 87 is also about the rewards of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked. I didn't see any verses about God's love, though.

The Sufis are more interested in the subject of Love---such as Rabia Al-Basri, Ibn Arabi, Hafiz, Rumi...etc (Though it mostly revolves around how we can love God)...

I am aware that the Sufi tradition focuses more on experiential ideas about God, such as the love for God expressed by these lovely poets you quoted. As you say, none of those discuss God's love for man.

As for your question about how taqwa should be translated, I wouldn't hold myself as one to ask. Can you give an example of an Islamic scholar who translates it as "love"?

Surah 2 begins by analyzing human nature, then brings up the point that humility and gratitude are the hallmarks of a person of Taqwa and arrogance and pride those of the Rebel (Kafir) and God is most forgiving---story of Adam & Iblis. (the story is explained in more detail in Surah 7 verses 11-25) This is carried over into the stories of the Jewish people and the lessens the new community can learn from them. This is also an early Medina Surah so there is some legal stuff. (it was a time when a new community was being formed---3,4,5 also have legal advice if I remember correctly--this was also a period when there were battles with the Meccans so these themes also come up---Battle of Badr(624CE), battle of Uhud 625CE), battle of the Trench (627CE))

The Qur'an does describe God as merciful and forgiving, but I don't see that as the same as love. For instance, a king might show merciful forgiveness to one of his wayward subjects not out of love, but rather to instill a sense of loyalty, or because the servant does other valuable things, etc. So as best I can see, Surah 2 does not speak to the question of whether God loves any or all men.

The word "deen" translated as religion is understood as "way of life" and the Quran is Guidance for it, that is, its main purpose is to set up a framework of ethico-moral principles for Guidance. The starting point of all Quranic principles is Tawheed (Unity). In general, there is a lot of stuff on the subject of Paradise and Hell throughout the Quran.---apparently the polytheists of the region did not have a concept of an afterlife. The juxtaposition of Paradise and Hell consecutively may also serve as a literary device to make people/listeners pay attention.

Ghazi appeals to tawheed
It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

1 John 4:7-19 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another...So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him...We love because he first loved us.

[RBerman]

I am indeed a Young Earth Creationist, although I admit that it is not a necessary belief for salvation.

The resurrection of my Lord Jesus is the heart of Christian theology. If He just died then He would have been another false prophet. Either a liar, a lunatic, or both. Jesus rising from the grave defeated sin and death for all those who believe in Him, and proving Him true, not only His claim that He would rise in three days, but also that He was speaking the truth when He claimed Godhood. He proved the Gospel immeasurably, and showed the first fruit of the new Creation that is yet to come. God is with us, and not only is He with us, He LOVES US! He met death for us; and defeated it. The time will come where death will die and it will be a glorious day.

[I]

[siam]

@RBerman
Reading Ghazi---Wow....seems you are really interested. If you try to leave aside your own cultural/philosophical
(Christian-centric)constructs, then you will be open to see a different perspective and perhaps get a feel for the
different framework under which the Quran discusses various subjects. Think of it as an adventure in exploring a
different paradigm.....?......

The different framework---Caring, Compassion, Mercy, Protection, Nurturing, Guidance....etc are all components
of love. Love can be understood in the abstract, or it can be understood in how it is applied/practiced. A parent
who nurses a sick child or a parent that spends time doing an activity with the child, is one whose actions show
love. Such actions may be mundane and therefore taken for granted, overlooked, or disregarded.

Grand gestures of love are more memorable.......

There are many ways to see/understand the subject of love. You gave an example of the King forgiving the
subject....another idea is discussed by William Blake

"Love seeketh not itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care,
But for another gives its ease,
And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair."

So sung a little Clod of Clay
Trodden with the cattle's feet,
But a Pebble of the brook
Warbled out these metres meet:

"Love seeketh only self to please,
To bind another to its delight,
Joys in another's loss of ease,
And builds a Hell in Heaven's despite."

One might say that an excessively sacrificial love is unbalanced because the self is unimportant and disregarded.
An excessively selfish love is unbalanced because the other/partner is unimportant and disregarded.

The Quran also has its own reflections on Love. (IMO), the concepts in the Quran are balanced by being paired.
So when one is speaking of love in terms of Compassion and Mercy, this concept is paired with Justice so that
they balance each other. Justice is tempered with Compassion /Mercy......this way, neither falls into excess.

Creation---All of creation symbolizes God's love.---that humanity exists is because God loves.(Sufi). Why else
are we able to breathe, eat, have shelter, have paths to travel, companions/friends for ease,...etc......it is so self-evident.
We can choose to see it this way, or
...we can take existence for granted and overlook, disregard or abuse it. If we understand all of creation as
God's love and that God's love encompasses all of creation----then we (human beings) may be better able to
accomplish God's will which is to have right intentions and actions that benefit all of God's creations.

Taqwa(God-awareness/love of God)---the characteristics of a person of Taqwa are explained in Quran 2:177

2:177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in
Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of
love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of
slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to
be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people
of truth, the Allah-fearing. ---(Yusuf Ali translation)

Taqwa(God-awareness) is a state that can also be achieved in the Muslim practice of Ramadan (fasting). When
human beings stop paying so much attention to the self/ego---they are more open to being aware of God.

There is a lot written about the concept of Taqwa ---if you search the word---I think you will find much.

Thankyou for the quotes from the Bible.

I can mostly agree with the quotes from Genesis to Hosea---If God's love was interpreted as inclusive rather than
exclusive.

I would have to disagree with John 3:16 and a few others.....

Also---the concept of blessings and trials is slightly different. All experiences good and bad are tests from God,
most compassionate, most merciful. So, we need to be careful in placing value-judgements on our life
experiences because it may lead to arrogance and pride. (....that God's love belongs exclusively to me/us and
not others)

Resurrection---Thankyou for the quotes...though, so many bible quotes are a bit overwhelming......I would like to
reflect before I answer.

[Pentecost]

[RBerman]

Reading Ghazi---Wow....seems you are really interested. If you try to leave aside your own cultural/philosophical (Christian-centric)constructs, then you will be open to see a different perspective and perhaps get a feel for the different framework under which the Quran discusses various subjects. Think of it as an adventure in exploring a different paradigm?

phileo is affection and brotherhood, eros is desire (similar it seems to the arabic word), and agape is sacrificial love, the love that God has for man and that we must have toward each other. I suppose it might sound to a Muslim like shirkreally delight in man, but only encourage man to delight in God. That's a very different view of God's attitude and faculties than found in Christianity, which describes God as delighting in his children like a perfect Father. That special love is one aspect of the Bible's father/son language with respect to Jesus. I trust you're aware that Christians don't believe that Jesus was conceived by a sexual act between God and Mary?

The different framework---Caring, Compassion, Mercy, Protection, Nurturing, Guidance....etc are all components of love. Love can be understood in the abstract, or it can be understood in how it is applied/practiced. A parent who nurses a sick child or a parent that spends time doing an activity with the child, is one whose actions show love. Such actions may be mundane and therefore taken for granted, overlooked, or disregarded. Grand gestures of love are more memorable.

One might say that an excessively sacrificial love is unbalanced because the self is unimportant and disregarded. An excessively selfish love is unbalanced because the other/partner is unimportant and disregarded. The Quran also has its own reflections on Love. (IMO), the concepts in the Quran are balanced by being paired. So when one is speaking of love in terms of Compassion and Mercy, this concept is paired with Justice so that they balance each other. Justice is tempered with Compassion /Mercy......this way, neither falls into excess.

Creation---All of creation symbolizes God's love.---that humanity exists is because God loves.(Sufi). Why else are we able to breathe, eat, have shelter, have paths to travel, companions/friends for ease,...etc......it is so self-evident. We can choose to see it this way, or ...we can take existence for granted and overlook, disregard or abuse it. If we understand all of creation as God's love and that God's love encompasses all of creation----then we (human beings) may be better able to accomplish God's will which is to have right intentions and actions that benefit all of God's creations.

I can appreciate these sentiments. They seem to fall into the category of "things some Muslims believe and emphasize for philosophical reasons" rather than "things directly taught in the Qur'an."

Taqwa(God-awareness/love of God)---the characteristics of a person of Taqwa are explained in Quran 2:177

2:177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in
Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of
love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of
slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to
be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people
of truth, the Allah-fearing. ---(Yusuf Ali translation)

Taqwa(God-awareness) is a state that can also be achieved in the Muslim practice of Ramadan (fasting). When human beings stop paying so much attention to the self/ego---they are more open to being aware of God. There is a lot written about the concept of Taqwa ---if you search the word---I think you will find much.

OK. So again, Taqwa appears to fall into the category of man's obligation toward God. Christianity does have such a concept, but the heart of Christianity is not what God requires of man, but rather that God met his own requirements by being incarnate as a man, living a perfect life, dying an undeserved death, and then rising from death. God doesn't set aside his requirements. God satisfies those requirements himself, and then allows his own work to be reckoned as if it were our work. That is how He shows His love for us.

Thankyou for the quotes from the Bible. I can mostly agree with the quotes from Genesis to Hosea---If God's love was interpreted as inclusive rather than exclusive. I would have to disagree with John 3:16 and a few others. Also---the concept of blessings and trials is slightly different. All experiences good and bad are tests from God, most compassionate, most merciful. So, we need to be careful in placing value-judgements on our life experiences because it may lead to arrogance and pride. (....that God's love belongs exclusively to me/us and not others)

I addressed the question of inclusive and exclusive love above. I agree that we must be cautious in our value judgments, and we certainly have no good reason to feel arrogant. God's love is supposed to make us feel humble, because we could never deserve it. That's why true Christianity abandons all thoughts of earning God's favor through our behavior. Instead, we throw ourselves on God's mercy, pleading the merits of Jesus our Savior rather than our own merits.

Resurrection---Thank you for the quotes...though, so many bible quotes are a bit overwhelming......I would like to reflect before I answer.

I understand. I wasn't trying to bombard you with lots of material with the expectation that you'd respond separately to each passage. Rather, I just wanted to show you, from the sheer weight of the texts, how central the idea of Jesus' death and resurrection is to Christianity. It was no different in the days of Muhammad; the injil, which the Qur'an (Surah 3:3, 5:46, etc.) commends, has always been about Jesus' death and resurrection. All of these Bible verses are not a late addition to the text. They are present in the earliest manuscripts.

[siam]

@Pentecost and RBerman

Though incarnation and crucifixion conflict with the premises upon which Islamic framework is built, resurrection as a concept is acceptable (disconnected from the symbolism of crucifixion).

Love-----

Yes, we Muslims are more concerned with the idea of Reciprocity---God's love is self-evident so how can humanity reciprocate? The answer to this question is of most interest to Muslims. Therefore the Christian and Muslim perspective on the subject of love is probably different.

Beauty---In a previous post I mentioned the concept of Ihsan (Beautiful actions) This is the highest form of religion (way of life/arabic=deen) and Taqwa (God-awareness/love of God).
God is unseen---but his creation is seen. His creation is beautiful. It is an ayah (sign). The verses of the Quran are also ayah (signs). Likewise in the human context, love is unseen but its beautiful actions are seen---actions such as charity, caring, compassion, kindness....etc

Desire ---The soul/consciousness (nafs) experiences life through the body. How we understand and relate to the world is through the body. The body is built with desires so as to survive ---desires for food, shelter, companionship...etc. Some religions advocate for annihilation of egoic-self or detachment from (selfish) desires in order to attain closeness with the Divine. In Islam, the focus is on management of desires. God created in goodness---therefore, desires are a necessary part of life---neither good nor bad. They become bad/harmful when abused and become good/beautiful when used with Taqwa. (for ex---The desire to please God)

Agape(sacrificial love)---Excess can be harmful. To harm the self is just as bad as to harm another because God loves all (his creation) and I am God's creation equally as another.

We could posit that "sacrifice" occurs because of a lack--- for example, a loss of life can happen when a soldier lacks strength against another or adequate means of defense or power. Or when there is a lack of food, the parents decide to feed their children instead of themselves. Suicide can happen because of depression or other causes and one might posit a lack of health or help.

Sacrifice out of excess or lack shows an imbalance. In the Islamic context, neither is appropriate for God.

Anthropomorphism---(discussed previously) In Islam, God is not human. God does not have a gender. Human beings can only understand God's attributes through our human experiences but God is not limited by human experience/concepts/thoughts....these are human limitations. Because of such limitations human beings cannot comprehend the full degree of God's attributes.

God's compassion and mercy towards those who rebel---(Rebel=defined in a previous post)
"Fitra" is the Islamic concept of human nature---this posits that all humanity is created inherently good and within all human beings is embedded an inclination/remembrance of the One God. (All creation is muslim)
However, human beings have limited free-will and this "goodness" can be covered up with self-deception through arrogance/pride/ungratefulness. This turns us away from God (Taqwa)
Repentence is the means for a person in such a state to turn back towards God. God's Compassion and Mercy are constant and everpresent---it is only a question/choice of---do we desire it or not.

Surah 21 verse 35
"Say:O my servants who have transgressed against their souls, despair not of the mercy of God: for God forgives all sins for he is most forgiving, most merciful."

In the course of our lives (from birth to death) God forgives all those who ask for forgiveness.

I see Quran verses that show God's love in Ghazi, it is interesting that you did not........

Chosen people concept---the Quran discourages such a concept if it leads to exclusivity in "salvation". The Quranic position is that human beings have no right to make absolute judgements of who goes to Paradise/Hell---this is a right reserved for God alone.

Sacrificial requirements, humans underserving of God's love...etc...You are correct---the premises on which Christianity is built do not work within an Islamic framework.

Tawheed and Shirk---perhaps the concept is not clear?
Tawheed=Unity, Shirk=Division --- another way to understand it is Tawheed(Unity)=One God and Shirk(Division) = many Gods.

How these 2 concepts work within ethico-moral principles
Tawheed(Unity) posits that all creation is created by God. Only God (the creator) is superior and all (creation) are equally inferior to God---in other words, all creation are equal under God.....none superior/inferior to another. Unity is the way towards peace

Shirk(Division)---arbitrary value systems of hierarchies that give more power, superiority, benefits to one group of creation over another--thus creating divisions. This is the way towards strife.

[RBerman]

Yes, we Muslims are more concerned with the idea of Reciprocity---God's love is self-evident so how can humanity reciprocate? The answer to this question is of most interest to Muslims. Therefore the Christian and Muslim perspective on the subject of love is probably different.

Beauty---In a previous post I mentioned the concept of Ihsan (Beautiful actions) This is the highest form of religion (way of life/arabic=deen) and Taqwa (God-awareness/love of God). God is unseen---but his creation is seen. His creation is beautiful. It is an ayah (sign). The verses of the Quran are also ayah (signs). Likewise in the human context, love is unseen but its beautiful actions are seen---actions such as charity, caring, compassion, kindness....etc

Desire ---The soul/consciousness (nafs) experiences life through the body. How we understand and relate to the world is through the body. The body is built with desires so as to survive ---desires for food, shelter, companionship...etc. Some religions advocate for annihilation of egoic-self or detachment from (selfish) desires in order to attain closeness with the Divine. In Islam, the focus is on management of desires. God created in goodness---therefore, desires are a necessary part of life---neither good nor bad. They become bad/harmful when abused and become good/beautiful when used with Taqwa. (for ex---The desire to please God)

Agape(sacrificial love)---Excess can be harmful. To harm the self is just as bad as to harm another because God loves all (his creation) and I am God's creation equally as another. We could posit that "sacrifice" occurs because of a lack--- for example, a loss of life can happen when a soldier lacks strength against another or adequate means of defense or power. Or when there is a lack of food, the parents decide to feed their children instead of themselves. Suicide can happen because of depression or other causes and one might posit a lack of health or help. Sacrifice out of excess or lack shows an imbalance. In the Islamic context, neither is appropriate for God.

Anthropomorphism---(discussed previously) In Islam, God is not human. God does not have a gender. Human beings can only understand God's attributes through our human experiences but God is not limited by human experience/concepts/thoughts....these are human limitations. Because of such limitations human beings cannot comprehend the full degree of God's attributes.

God's compassion and mercy towards those who rebel---(Rebel=defined in a previous post) "Fitra" is the Islamic concept of human nature---this posits that all humanity is created inherently good and within all human beings is embedded an inclination/remembrance of the One God. (All creation is muslim) However, human beings have limited free-will and this "goodness" can be covered up with self-deception through arrogance/pride/ungratefulness. This turns us away from God (Taqwa) Repentence is the means for a person in such a state to turn back towards God. God's Compassion and Mercy are constant and everpresent---it is only a question/choice of---do we desire it or not.

Surah 21 verse 35
"Say:O my servants who have transgressed against their souls, despair not of the mercy of God: for God forgives all sins for he is most forgiving, most merciful."

In the course of our lives (from birth to death) God forgives all those who ask for forgiveness. I see Quran verses that show God's love in Ghazi, it is interesting that you did not.

Chosen people concept---the Quran discourages such a concept if it leads to exclusivity in "salvation". The Quranic position is that human beings have no right to make absolute judgements of who goes to Paradise/Hell---this is a right reserved for God alone. Sacrificial requirements, humans underserving of God's love...etc...You are correct---the premises on which Christianity is built do not work within an Islamic framework.

Tawheed and Shirk---perhaps the concept is not clear? Tawheed=Unity, Shirk=Division --- another way to understand it is Tawheed(Unity)=One God and Shirk(Division) = many Gods.

How these 2 concepts work within ethico-moral principles
Tawheed(Unity) posits that all creation is created by God. Only God (the creator) is superior and all (creation) are equally inferior to God---in other words, all creation are equal under God.....none superior/inferior to another. Unity is the way towards peace

Shirk(Division)---arbitrary value systems of hierarchies that give more power, superiority, benefits to one group of creation over another--thus creating divisions. This is the way towards strife.

We do appear to have rather different definitions of all of these basic values. I see beauty as the attribute which provokes desire. Desire does not have to be a bad thing, as you say. But desire is not the same thing as love. Desire seeks the satisfaction of the seeker. But "love (agape

[siam]

"If you reach some threshold of good-doing, God will favor you and overlook the times you have done wrong."---This is incorrect

Differences---Before my conversation with JohnnyP and Pentecost, I was under the impression that Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity. I still feel that the starting premises between our two religions are very different however, the deeper, more spiritual aspects may have similarity or convergence........