Muhammad mentioned by name in the Song of Songs?

[Christian3]

explaining Echad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak74TpPCsHs

explaining one version of the chosen people idea...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbFEgr2kRzwTotal depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered."

I am glad to know that there are Christians who believe the same as Jews and Muslims, that humanity is created inherently good. That we have the choice to submit to God's will or rebel. Jesus Christ is a good example of "one who submits to God's will" (= muslim).

When human beings make mistakes (sin), such as stealing for example, there is an element that is a crime against another human as well as a crime against God. In Islamic ethical principles, the ownership of property/wealth is a God-given right. Thus a person who steals from another has actually committed 2 crimes, one against another human being by infringing on a right and another against God who gave the right to humanity. Forgiveness or punishment for a crime/mistake a person commits against another person is a human affair to be dealt with human Justice. Forgiveness for mistakes committed against God is a divine prerogative to be dealt with divine Justice. Not all human errors/sin have this duality---some crimes/mistakes are only human affairs---some are only for God to decide---for example, when a person makes partners to the One God---this is an error in belief and God has the right to decide to forgive or not---but it is not a crime against another person, and so, has nothing to do with human justice.

the cross---from a Muslim perspective, God does not need a cross to forgive---he does as he wills whenever he wills.

....will reply to other points when I get the time---

[Christian3]

The generally accepted idea within Islam is substitution---that it was not Jesus Christ. As to what actually happened to Messiah Jesus is known to God---this is what the Quran has to say---

Quran 4:157

Sahih International: And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Pickthall: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-


and Quran 3: 55

Sahih International: [Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

Pickthall: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

Yusuf Ali: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

...therefore God "took him" to himself---and it is generally believed that Jesus Christ will come again (2nd coming?)....
For Muslims---the details of the situation are not important, instead, what is important is that the Jews did not kill him. That which the Quran does not elaborate on...is simply speculative and so, no opinion need be formed on it.

Who provided the substitute? It seems to me that the substitute would have to have been some kind of a miracle in order to fool Jesus' disciples and His mother.

[siam]

misbehave, behave badly, break the law, err, fall from grace, stray from the straight and narrow, sin, do wrong, go astray;

A "Moral Injury"--is when a person transgresses upon his deeply held moral beliefs and expectations---and it often happens in wartime---(U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_injury

"If you reject the God-given salvation at the cross, you have no Savior. Good deeds do not cover sin. Say someone kills another person and he goes before a judge and the killer says, please do not put me in jail -- look at all the good deeds I have done, surely they cover this crime. Would the judge be just if he let him go because his good deeds outnumbered this crime? No."
---I am not rejecting anything, as there is no "God-given salvation at the cross' doctrine in Islam.
If a person commits murder---the person has 2 choices---to have remorse, to repent and to reform oneself, or to harden ones heart and continue on the same path of transgression. The family of the victims have 3 choices---to ask for the death penalty, to ask for compensation, or to forgive. As for God---he may do as he wills. God most merciful, most compassionate, may forgive if the person asks for forgiveness, or if the person feels remorse but has not asked for forgiveness yet, God may give more chances to the person to turn towards God and his mercy or God may decide to punish him in this life and/or the next...God has options BUT....the Quran states clearly that whatever God does/will do....it will be absolutely Just, Compassionate and Merciful.
Human Justice can only make determination according to what is seen (human actions). Divine Justice takes into account the seen and the unseen (intentions and actions).
Right belief (Tawheed) can help to promote right intentions (Taqwa/love of God) which then lead to right actions.

I may not have understood the Christian doctrine of TD (Total Depravity) very well?---but it seems to me that what it is saying is that human intentions/motivations have been "corrupted" by the fall (of Adam) therefore no matter our actions, the intentions/motivations will always be unclean/bad/sinful?
If such a premise is accepted---then the rest of the story of requiring a sacrifice (human?/God?) so that things are put right/corrected---falls into place. Something went wrong,(fall) and a correction (sacrifice) was required to make it right.

However, since such a premise does not exist in Islam (and Judaism)---therefore, the rest of the story simply does not fit....and even if you quote verses of the Bible and Quran---it still won't fit.

"Who provided the substitute? It seems to me that the substitute would have to have been some kind of a miracle in order to fool Jesus' disciples and His mother."----Apparently, in the NT stories, there are instances where the Disciples or Mary (Magdelene) do not recognize him?...such as the empty tomb?...etc...
here is some speculation on it---
https://www.gotquestions.org/recogni...ted-Jesus.html

In any case---since the Quran does not specify---the answer to "what happened" will only be speculation---and only God knows.

[Christian3]

[siam]

I appreciate your patience in trying to explain Christian doctrine---even though I am having difficulty understanding it.....I don't get the logic of it....

So are you saying God is infinite, Man is finite...therefore when Man does good it is finite and when Man does bad it is infinite and this is why God needs a sacrifice?

Whatever this "infinite Justice" means---it seems very unjust to me---the God who makes the "laws" in the first place has to sacrifice himself to get out of an impossible law that he himself created? is that what you are saying?

God, who is worthy of worship---is incapable of forgiveness---unless some God-made criteria of justice is met---and in order to meet this criteria which he himself created---he has to suffer---and this somehow is "infinite justice"---and he is now able to forgive?---but he still cannot forgive whomever he wills---he can only forgive a "Christian"?

You must forgive me if I find your explanations illogical. Christianity is very difficult to understand....people who are comfortable with all aspects of religion being a "mystery" may be fine with such explanations---but I am not.

"You must have a historical basis for not believing Jesus died and rose from the dead."---why? Perhaps Christianity needs a "historical basis" to verify the truth of their Bible. We Muslims are not dependent on history for truth---we depend on the Quran. The Quran itself gives us the criteria to test it.

If you are interested in the details of the Christian substitution---you can look at the gnostics---apparently some of them believed in substitution for their own doctrinal purposes....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosti...lypse_of_Peter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_hypothesis

As for Muslims---On those matters that the Quran does not elaborate on...we can speculate---but such speculation is only useful in creating arguments as only God knows the Truth.
I agree with the commentary you mentioned above---Muslims should ponder over and reflect on the verses of the Quran....so that we may have the humility to acknowledge our limits of knowledge.

There are some things that the Quran confirms about Jesus Christ...1) He was a "sign" from God, 2) He had knowledge from God 3) He was a Prophet (Masih) sent to the Jews. 4) He was a human being the way Prophet Adam was a human being. 5) He was the son of Mary.
...All of this the Christians can also agree to...right?
There are some things the Quran explains about God....1) He is One 2)God has no partners, spouses, children 3) He is Most Compassionate Most Merciful 4) God is Most Just. 5) All creation is created by God and belongs to God.
...all of this the Christians can also agree with....right?
There are some ideas that the Quran corrects---Such as....1)God is 3, 2)God has a son 3) God cannot forgive whomever he wills 4) God's mercy is only for a select few who are the "chosen people".
These would be areas of disagreement between Christians and Muslims right?

by the way...what is your definition of justice?

[Christian3]

I appreciate your patience in trying to explain Christian doctrine---even though I am having difficulty understanding it.....I don't get the logic of it....

So are you saying God is infinite, Man is finite...therefore when Man does good it is finite and when Man does bad it is infinite and this is why God needs a sacrifice?

Finite: is That which is finite has a limit and is measurable. Man is finite.

Infinite is: Unlimited, immeasurable, boundless, timeless, without end. Lacking any limitation in time, space, etc. We use terms describing God as omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent. God is infinite.

Whatever this "infinite Justice" means---it seems very unjust to me---the God who makes the "laws" in the first place has to sacrifice himself to get out of an impossible law that he himself created? is that what you are saying?

God made the laws and we break them; He has every right to punish us for our sins.

We cannot not sin and we sin against God, but God showed His mercy at the cross.

The Bible shows that God is merciful, but it also shows that God is just and He will dispense justice on the sin of the world.

God, who is worthy of worship---is incapable of forgiveness---unless some God-made criteria of justice is met---and in order to meet this criteria which he himself created---he has to suffer---and this somehow is "infinite justice"---and he is now able to forgive?---but he still cannot forgive whomever he wills---he can only forgive a "Christian"?

John 3:16New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You must forgive me if I find your explanations illogical. Christianity is very difficult to understand....people who are comfortable with all aspects of religion being a "mystery" may be fine with such explanations---but I am not.

And isn't it a mystery according to Islam as to how Jesus avoided the cross -- "only Allah knows"?

"You must have a historical basis for not believing Jesus died and rose from the dead."---why? Perhaps Christianity needs a "historical basis" to verify the truth of their Bible. We Muslims are not dependent on history for truth---we depend on the Quran. The Quran itself gives us the criteria to test it.

We do have a historical basis for the Bible and Jesus' death.

If Muslims depend on the Qur'an for its history then it is called circular reasoning.

If you are interested in the details of the Christian substitution---you can look at the gnostics---apparently some of them believed in substitution for their own doctrinal purposes....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosti...lypse_of_Peter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_hypothesis

I have a copy of the Apocalypse of Peter.

The Coptic Apocalypse of Peter has been dated to the 3rd century and no one believes that Apostle Peter wrote it.

It is Gnostic. Many of the Gnostics were also Docetics. The Docetics believed that Jesus was truly God in the flesh, but He was not really a human being. In other words, Jesus only seemed to be a man.

"He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

IOW's, What was crucified was not the divine Christ but his physical shell.

I believe it quite possible that the Islamic belief that Jesus escaped crucifixion because a substitute was crucified in His place stems from Docetism. I believe that some of the Gnostic/Docetic "Christians" made it to Saudi Arabia. In fact, the governor of Egypt sent Muhammad a Coptic slave by the name of Maria. Maria could have been Muhammad's source for Surah 4:157. There were undoubtedly more Coptics in Saudi Arabia during the lifetime of Muhammad.

As for Muslims---On those matters that the Quran does not elaborate on...we can speculate---but such speculation is only useful in creating arguments as only God knows the Truth.

I could give you a long list of Muslim speculation.

I agree with the commentary you mentioned above---Muslims should ponder over and reflect on the verses of the Quran....so that we may have the humility to acknowledge our limits of knowledge.

There are some things that the Quran confirms about Jesus Christ...1) He was a "sign" from God, 2) He had knowledge from God 3) He was a Prophet (Masih) sent to the Jews. 4) He was a human being the way Prophet Adam was a human being. 5) He was the son of Mary. ...All of this the Christians can also agree to...right?

There are some things the Quran explains about God....1) He is One 2)God has no partners, spouses, children 3) He is Most Compassionate Most Merciful 4) God is Most Just. 5) All creation is created by God and belongs to God.
...all of this the Christians can also agree with....right?

[QUOTE=siam;445075]

Yes.

[QUOTE=siam;445075]

There are some ideas that the Quran corrects---Such as....1)God is 3, 2)God has a son 3) God cannot forgive whomever he wills 4) God's mercy is only for a select few who are the "chosen people".
These would be areas of disagreement between Christians and Muslims right?

What do you mean by "God is three"?
What is your understanding of the term "Son of God"?

by the way...what is your definition of justice?

A just God always does what is right.

[siam]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1)---I agree that God is not finite but creation is finite....however, according to your post---you reasoned that good actions of man are finite but bad actions are infinite....if both actions are committed by finite man---why the difference?

2)---but according to Christianity---did not God break his own laws?---apparently he is a God that cannot forgive (as per the laws he himself created) but in order to forgive humanity---he has to change the laws by killing himself? Did I get this correct? .....further, such an unfair and unjust practice is, according to Christianity, "infinite Justice?---whatever that might mean?......

3)---All knowledge is from God and belongs to God---and he allows human beings access to this knowledge as he wills....therefore, lack of knowledge about a matter is not necessarily a "mystery" as this knowledge will be gained if God wills. A mystery --- something that defies explanation (reason, logic) might be the way I understand/misunderstand Christian doctrines......
...and yes...Islam does have its "mystery"......

Jesus Christ avoided the cross like Prophet Abraham avoided the fire---by God's will. For Muslims this declares that Jesus Christ is a true Prophet/Messenger of God and not the false Prophet as some Jews might claim because of Deuteronomy. The details of the process are not important---just as speculation on how Prophet Abraham avoided the fire is not important.......it is the symbolism/meaning of the message that is important.

4)---Muslims do not depend on the Quran for "history" because the Quran is not a history book---it is a book of Guidance. It is a book of ethics/morality, of how to please God, God's purpose and expectations of humanity, ....etc. The Quran does touch on many subjects of history, science, economics, etiquette, metaphysics, wisdom, relationships....etc.
Knowledge gained, is useful in helping us understand God and his message (Quran). Thus, both the Prophet and the Quran encourage seeking knowledge in all areas of human endeavor.....

5)---In the past some Christians claimed that the Quran copied from the Bible or "misunderstood" the Bible. More recent Western scholarship is assuming that the Quran is in dialogue with (Eastern) Judaism and Christianity and clarifying, confirming, and/or correcting the discussions going on between Christians and Jews. (some papers and seminars have been done on this intertextuality---but it is still a fairly new area of study in the West)---some scholars names are Holger Zellentin, Sydney Griffith, Reuven Firestone....etc....
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Quran-S.../dp/1589830644

6)---There is much speculation on all sorts of matters.......but...speculation is just that---without evidence it is not truth.

7)---My personal opinion is that a "sign" can be "proof of God". So, Nature/Creation, Quran...are "signs" which could also be interpreted as "proof of God". The "miracles" of Jesus Christ are also "proof of God"/signs to the Jews that he is the Prophet/Masih from God. The existence/birth of Jesus Christ is also a "sign/"proof of God"....as was his highly spiritual nature as one who submits to God's will.

Some Christians believe Jesus was the 2nd Adam? Not sure what it means?...but here is one explanation?....
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-second-Adam.html

8)---What do you mean by "God is three"?
What is your understanding of the term "Son of God"?

God is 3---Tritheism, Tri-Unity, Complex Unity, Godhead,.....
son of God = Incarnation, God takes on created form, an infinite God becomes finite......

9)---So, your definition of justice is "doing right"?
Judaism and Islam have a couple of foundational principles in the understanding of Justice---that all are equal under the law and that all are innocent until proven guilty. These principles are not important in the Christian conception of justice?

[Christian3]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1)---I agree that God is not finite but creation is finite....however, according to your post---you reasoned that good actions of man are finite but bad actions are infinite....if both actions are committed by finite man---why the difference?

2)---but according to Christianity---did not God break his own laws?---apparently he is a God that cannot forgive (as per the laws he himself created) but in order to forgive humanity---he has to change the laws by killing himself? Did I get this correct? .....further, such an unfair and unjust practice is, according to Christianity, "infinite Justice?---whatever that might mean?......

3)---All knowledge is from God and belongs to God---and he allows human beings access to this knowledge as he wills....therefore, lack of knowledge about a matter is not necessarily a "mystery" as this knowledge will be gained if God wills. A mystery --- something that defies explanation (reason, logic) might be the way I understand/misunderstand Christian doctrines......
...and yes...Islam does have its "mystery"......

Jesus Christ avoided the cross like Prophet Abraham avoided the fire---by God's will. For Muslims this declares that Jesus Christ is a true Prophet/Messenger of God and not the false Prophet as some Jews might claim because of Deuteronomy. The details of the process are not important---just as speculation on how Prophet Abraham avoided the fire is not important.......it is the symbolism/meaning of the message that is important.

4)---Muslims do not depend on the Quran for "history" because the Quran is not a history book---it is a book of Guidance. It is a book of ethics/morality, of how to please God, God's purpose and expectations of humanity, ....etc. The Quran does touch on many subjects of history, science, economics, etiquette, metaphysics, wisdom, relationships....etc.
Knowledge gained, is useful in helping us understand God and his message (Quran). Thus, both the Prophet and the Quran encourage seeking knowledge in all areas of human endeavor.....

5)---In the past some Christians claimed that the Quran copied from the Bible or "misunderstood" the Bible. More recent Western scholarship is assuming that the Quran is in dialogue with (Eastern) Judaism and Christianity and clarifying, confirming, and/or correcting the discussions going on between Christians and Jews. (some papers and seminars have been done on this intertextuality---but it is still a fairly new area of study in the West)---some scholars names are Holger Zellentin, Sydney Griffith, Reuven Firestone....etc....
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Quran-S.../dp/1589830644

6)---There is much speculation on all sorts of matters.......but...speculation is just that---without evidence it is not truth.

7)---My personal opinion is that a "sign" can be "proof of God". So, Nature/Creation, Quran...are "signs" which could also be interpreted as "proof of God". The "miracles" of Jesus Christ are also "proof of God"/signs to the Jews that he is the Prophet/Masih from God. The existence/birth of Jesus Christ is also a "sign/"proof of God"....as was his highly spiritual nature as one who submits to God's will.

Some Christians believe Jesus was the 2nd Adam? Not sure what it means?...but here is one explanation?....
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-second-Adam.html

8)---What do you mean by "God is three"?
What is your understanding of the term "Son of God"?

God is 3---Tritheism, Tri-Unity, Complex Unity, Godhead,.....
son of God = Incarnation, God takes on created form, an infinite God becomes finite......

9)---So, your definition of justice is "doing right"?
Judaism and Islam have a couple of foundational principles in the understanding of Justice---that all are equal under the law and that all are innocent until proven guilty. These principles are not important in the Christian conception of justice?

[b]

[siam]

Justice----
"If God forgives sins without a penalty, then He is not Just.
God cannot be merciful at the expense of His Justice. The punishment for sins cannot be brushed aside so mercy can be extended."

----If God does not forgive sins he is not compassionate or merciful---Yet, Christians claim "God is love"?
If mercy is not an option in Justice---then such a justice is harsh and unbalanced. Punishment, reparation or mercy should be options in the application of justice for it to be balanced. Perhaps Christian Justice is only about retribution?---but in Islam, Justice is about reconciliationbecause God is Most compassionate, Most merciful.

[Christian3]

Justice----
"If God forgives sins without a penalty, then He is not Just.
God cannot be merciful at the expense of His Justice. The punishment for sins cannot be brushed aside so mercy can be extended."

----If God does not forgive sins he is not compassionate or merciful---Yet, Christians claim "God is love"?
If mercy is not an option in Justice---then such a justice is harsh and unbalanced. Punishment, reparation or mercy should be options in the application of justice for it to be balanced. Perhaps Christian Justice is only about retribution?---but in Islam, Justice is about reconciliationbecause God is Most compassionate, Most merciful.

If Adam was forgiven, then why was he punished?

God showed He is love, Just, Compassionate and forgiving at the Cross.

[siam]

If Adam was forgiven, then why was he punished?

What is the Christian understanding of the story and the punishment? If I understand it correctly---the punishment you refer to is sin/death?, right? can you elaborate....

The Muslim perspective---from the Quranic story.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."

Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.

According to the Quran, God created humanity as his Trustees on earth. As the Angels observed at the time, humanity had the potential to "shed blood and create mischief". But then God shows the Angels the true potential of human beings and when told to bow down, they do so. So the nature and purpose of humanity is determined from the start.
Then, God tests them---by giving a choice to obey God or to listen to Satan. Adam makes an incorrect choice and when he repents, God forgives him and also promises that guidance will be given to all of humanity. (Adam=humanity) The choice of accepting or rejecting guidance will be/is the responsibility of humanity/Adam.

Our stay on earth is a temporary place of settlement, a time of trials and tests (Sharr) as well as blessings and ease.(Khair). The Quran advices that we deal with adversity with patience and deal with the favors with gratitude. Those who deal with adversity in anger and impatience and those who look upon God's favors with arrogance and ingratitude are the "losers".
Both blessings and trials are tests....(of our intentions/character).

Judgement day is the time when God reveals to us if we have passed or failed our tests....God promises that we/humanity will be graded justly. All humanity is a creation of God, therefore his mercy and compassion extends to all.

[siam]

God showed He is love, Just, Compassionate and forgiving at the Cross.

I have seen videos of Christian apologetics and I have no doubt that Christians are good people who sincerely believe that God is love. Nor am I doubting that Christians who say they believe in One God truly do so. Language is inadequate in explaining metaphysical concepts---so it is inevitable that to an outsider like me---the explanations may not make sense...and this is what I am trying to convey.

To Christians the symbolism of the cross may be powerful---but to an outsider---it may come across as barbaric human sacrifice?....Indeed, I was shocked when I first saw a lifesize statue of a bloody, dead, human on a cross.

For Muslims, "love" from God is a self-evident, daily occurrence. It is all around us every minute of every day---we simply need to see it and be grateful.

Surah 55 makes this clear....
1. The most compassionate
2. It is he that has taught the Quran
3. He has created the human being
4. He has taught him insight
5. The sun and the moon follow courses computed
6. and the herbs and trees bow in adoration
7. and the firmament he has uplifted and he has established the balance of justice
8. in order that you may not transgress due balance
9. so establish weight with justice and do not fall short in balance
10. it is he who has spread the earth for his creatures
11. in it are fruits and sheathed date palms
12. and husked grain and scented herbs
13. then which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?.....
.....etc....

From the precision and balance of the universe to the sustenance and nurture provided on Earth to our very creation and life---is all a favor/blessing from God. Our wealth, health, family, knowledge, Wisdom and Guidance, are signs of "love" from God. From the day we are born to the day we die---we see signs of this "love".

So, the concern is not "does God love us?"---because that is obvious and self-evident---the concern is---how can we reciprocate?---what can humanity do to please God.
The Quran answers this question.

[Christian3]

What is the Christian understanding of the story and the punishment? If I understand it correctly---the punishment you refer to is sin/death?, right? can you elaborate....

You didn't answer my question: If Adam was forgiven, then why was he punished?

The Muslim perspective---from the Quranic story.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."

Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.

The Qur'an also says:

We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."

What was that tree?

According to the Quran, God created humanity as his Trustees on earth. As the Angels observed at the time, humanity had the potential to "shed blood and create mischief". But then God shows the Angels the true potential of human beings and when told to bow down, they do so. So the nature and purpose of humanity is determined from the start.
Then, God tests them---by giving a choice to obey God or to listen to Satan. Adam makes an incorrect choice and when he repents, God forgives him and also promises that guidance will be given to all of humanity. (Adam=humanity) The choice of accepting or rejecting guidance will be/is the responsibility of humanity/Adam.

Our stay on earth is a temporary place of settlement, a time of trials and tests (Sharr) as well as blessings and ease.(Khair). The Quran advices that we deal with adversity with patience and deal with the favors with gratitude. Those who deal with adversity in anger and impatience and those who look upon God's favors with arrogance and ingratitude are the "losers".
Both blessings and trials are tests....(of our intentions/character).

Judgement day is the time when God reveals to us if we have passed or failed our tests....God promises that we/humanity will be graded justly. All humanity is a creation of God, therefore his mercy and compassion extends to all.

Have you ever studied the Bible from start to finish?

[Christian3]

I have seen videos of Christian apologetics and I have no doubt that Christians are good people who sincerely believe that God is love. Nor am I doubting that Christians who say they believe in One God truly do so. Language is inadequate in explaining metaphysical concepts---so it is inevitable that to an outsider like me---the explanations may not make sense...and this is what I am trying to convey.

To Christians the symbolism of the cross may be powerful---but to an outsider---it may come across as barbaric human sacrifice?....Indeed, I was shocked when I first saw a lifesize statue of a bloody, dead, human on a cross.

For Muslims, "love" from God is a self-evident, daily occurrence. It is all around us every minute of every day---we simply need to see it and be grateful.

Surah 55 makes this clear....
1. The most compassionate
2. It is he that has taught the Quran
3. He has created the human being
4. He has taught him insight
5. The sun and the moon follow courses computed
6. and the herbs and trees bow in adoration
7. and the firmament he has uplifted and he has established the balance of justice
8. in order that you may not transgress due balance
9. so establish weight with justice and do not fall short in balance
10. it is he who has spread the earth for his creatures
11. in it are fruits and sheathed date palms
12. and husked grain and scented herbs
13. then which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?.....
.....etc....

From the precision and balance of the universe to the sustenance and nurture provided on Earth to our very creation and life---is all a favor/blessing from God. Our wealth, health, family, knowledge, Wisdom and Guidance, are signs of "love" from God. From the day we are born to the day we die---we see signs of this "love".

So, the concern is not "does God love us?"---because that is obvious and self-evident---the concern is---how can we reciprocate?---what can humanity do to please God.
The Quran answers this question.

[i]

[siam]

I have explained from the start of our conversation that the Christian meta-narrative or paradigm is not the same as the Muslim one---trying to fit the doctrinal pieces of a Christian meta-narrative onto a Muslim one will not work as the pieces have a different shape---its like fitting a square peg in a round hole. Islam is much closer (not same) in its paradigm/meta-narrative, to Judaism than it is to Christianity.

While Christianity may require the Torah to validate its claims---Islam does not require the Torah or the NT---the Quran stands on its own merits and narrative. Likewise, Judaism also does not require the NT or the Quran. It is only Christianity that appropriates another religion's sacred texts for its own purposes.

Which is why I, (and most Muslims) do not read the Torah or the NT---I happen to read some of the Torah in order to explore the intersections between the Quranic themes and the Torah. I have not read the NT, but have looked at various verses/passages that intersect with some theme or point the Quran is making. Hebrew and Arabic are sister languages so many of the Hebrew concept-words also appear in the Quran in their Arabic form. The comparison of root meanings, depth of definitions and use are interesting. But the NT is either Greek or English---no relation to Arabic or Hebrew. Greek and English are part of the Indo-European language family and so comparisons (concept-words, ideas) with Sanskrit of India or Avestan of Persia would be more interesting....perhaps.....
IMO, some Christianities may have more similarities to the world-view/meta-narratives of these ancient Eastern religions of old Persia and India than do Judaism and Islam?....or not?....

To Punish---inflict a penalty or sanction on (someone) as retribution for an offense, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code.
"I have done wrong and I'm being punished for it"
synonyms: discipline, teach someone a lesson;

treat (someone) in an unfairly harsh way.
"a rise in prescription charges would punish the poor"
synonyms: penalize, unfairly disadvantage, handicap, hurt, wrong, ill-use, maltreat
"higher charges would punish the poor"

In the above definition, the 2nd option can be ruled out right?---I think both Christians and Muslims can agree God cannot be conceived as unfair/unjust?
the first options has two understandings---1) to penalize for a transgression, 2) to teach a lesson.

IMO, in the Quranic story, God teaches Adam---previously God taught Adam the names---now God teaches Adam discernment, prudence...(he is made aware of aspects of his nature).......this leads Adam to repent and God forgives and gives him Guidance and promises to send Guidance to all of humanity (though the choice of accepting or rejecting it is upto them.)
The Quranic verses given in the previous post show this chronology.

likewise, some tests or trials that we receive on earth are "teaching moments" and/or opportunities to "turn to God"
(bad/harm caused by humans to other humans is a transgression against our brothers in humanity and God---and human beings have a God-given right for redress and justice---therefore, there are laws)

Tree---the Quran does not specify the tree---this is not important to the Quranic story.

Nature of God---In previous posts, I gave Surah 112 and the verse of the throne (ayatul kursi) as explanations of the Quranic view.

In Islam, God is neither male nor female, nor both male and female---any grammatical gender used in explanations of God is simply a limitation of language. God is Unique and no thing/being in creation is like him/it.

Christian beliefs---What is in the hearts of Christians is a matter between them and God. The Quran calls Jews and Christians "people of the book". All that I can say about Christianity is that I do not understand it, therefore I cannot give assent to its propositions.