Originally posted by TimelessTheist
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World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.
This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.
And as usual, the forum rules apply.
Forum Rules: Here
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Catholic Problems
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostWe do not have what Jesus said in Aramaic. What we do have is the Greek, which is why I am dealing with the Greek. If you do want to make an argument from a reconstruction of the Aramaic, feel free to do so, but I think it'll need much more detail and rigor then you have given it.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostPeter's new name became "petros", how is that not clear enough?That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostThe only evidence I need in order to know that the original re-naming was to Cephas, not petros, is the sheer number of times Simon is referred to as Cephas in the New Testament.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostThen please explain why Jesus says "on this petra" He will build his church, and not "on this petros" or "on you".
Are you familiar with the phenomenon of gendered nouns?Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostBecause petra was the more common word, and was more readily understood to refer to a large rock. Petros, being masculine noun, was used to bridge Simon with petra, with which he could not as easily be identified because petra is a feminine noun.
Are you familiar with the phenomenon of gendered nouns?
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostYes. Please do show how gender in Greek would require such a 'bridging'.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostDon't know that much about Greek, actually, but it makes a heckuvalot more sense than deciding that petra must refer to some other unclear antecedent in the passage.
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostStop dodging. Either respond to the points or admit you can't.
<...>
Oh my, more whining and mockery instead of responding to any of the points? I guess that makes it clear of which one of us is actually interested in honest debate, and which one is just interested in slinging mud.
I dislike James White because he's a disingenuous jerkwad with an ego the size of Great Britain. Heck, at one point, he actually compared his detractors to radical Muslim terrorists.
<...>This is all listed, once again, in the article by the Catholic Legate I linked to, if you would bother to actually read it instead of scoffing at it.
I already read the article. Here's what I found so objectionable...
Strictly speaking, it is true that Honorius is not listed with the rest. However, that's not because of deference but because he's specifically being singled out as "expelled" and "anathematized" because " in all respects [Honorius] followed [Sergius'] view and confirmed his impious doctrines."
So Pope Agatho and the Council is "rightly condemning Honorius" for a letter which CL describes as "defending the orthodox position"?
This is a valiant attempt to argue that Honorius is merely being censured by being silent when he should have spoken out. Curiously, CL neglects to comment on the phrase "in all respects" - because it completely undermines his argument. Also, by the by, CL admits of the meaning from the Catholic Encyclopedia which you questioned - though I'm not sure why he is so confident that the Latin is a translation from the Greek when the letter originated in Rome. Maybe you missed that when you read the article.
As shown by the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Honorius, there is good reason why he was not mentioned in the Acts of the Lateran Council:
If you'll note carefully, you'll see that the Lateran Council was not about Monothelitism - it was about the Ecthesis and Type, which were not issued until after Honorius' death. As Honorius had not positively assented to either, his name was not mentioned.
So, all in all, not an article that adheres well to the facts I can check.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostAgain, I'm not deciding petra must be referring to something else. However, as I understand it, the Catholic position which I'm questioning is dependent on petra referring to Peter. Thus, I am asking TT (and you since you've joined it) to show that it does.
Simon would not be referred to consistently through the NT as Cephas unless that were the name Jesus had given him. Cephas is equivalent in meaning to petra. It's a big rock, a foundation stone. Simon Peter, also known as Cephas, is clearly the foundation stone, and this name clearly has significance that neither Paul's name change nor the nickname of the sons of Zebedee can be said to have.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostDon't know that much about Greek, actually, but it makes a heckuvalot more sense than deciding that petra must refer to some other unclear antecedent in the passage.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostIndeed, so why did Jesus say on this petra I will build my church?Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostThe feminine form was more commonly used to refer to a large rock, instead of a small rock, however they couldn't use tge same word for Peter's title because Peter was a man, and the noun "petras" is feminine.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostAs I replied to Spartacus above, please do show how gender in Greek would require such a 'bridging', since in your reading you have Jesus referring to him as petra anyway.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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