Catholic Problems

[One Bad Pig]

Who are you referring to when you say it is described as 'rare'?

In the Eastern orthodox churches, the episcopacy is required to be celebate, whereas in the Roman catholic church a promise of celibacy is required of all who, again voluntarily, wish to be ordained to the priesthood, not just the episcopacy.

Eastern Rite Catholic priests (Uniates) can be married. Rome has on occasion attempted to stop the practice, which is why my diocese became Orthodox in 1938.

[robrecht]

Your reverse logic failed,* to be a member of any order in the Roman Church, celibacy is an absolute requirement it is not a voluntary* choice as a priest or nun.

What in the world are you talking about?* Other than third order groups (some of which accept married people and some of which require celibacy), of course the religious orders you are talking about require celibacy. Did you imagine I said otherwise??? The point is that joining such an order is a voluntary* choice. Seeking ordination in the Roman catholic church is also a voluntary choice.

*I figured out the point of confusion. Voluntary does not necessarily mean optional. Once one makes the voluntary decision to become a celibate member of a religious order or community requiring celibacy of its members, if he is a man, he may have the option of seeking ordination, but he does not have the option to get married without first leaving the religious order.

[robrecht]

In the Roman church, the episcopacy is required to be celebate.

Celibate. Yes, of course. Because bishops are chosen from among priests, who are required to promise celibacy prior to ordination. Did you somehow imagine that I was denying that?

On the other hand, I suppose it is possible for a married priest in the Roman catholic church, eg, one who converted from Anglicanism after already being ordained, to be elevated to the episcopacy.

[robrecht]

Eastern Rite Catholic priests (Uniates) can be married. Rome has on occasion attempted to stop the practice, which is why my diocese became Orthodox in 1938.

Yes, I've heard of this. I think the rationale was probably to prevent the rank and file Catholics from being confused or something like that.

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, I've heard of this. I think the rationale was probably to prevent the rank and file Catholics from being confused or something like that.

I should also note that Eastern Orthodox bishops are celibate from long-standing tradition, but celibacy is not a canonical requirement AFAIK.

[robrecht]

I should also note that Eastern Orthodox bishops are celibate from long-standing tradition, but celibacy is not a canonical requirement AFAIK.

Interesting. Are there secular* or diocesan* celibate Eastern Orthodox priests or is priestly celibacy only or mostly lived in religious communities of some kind?

*Not sure if this is the correct term in Eastern Orthodoxy.

[One Bad Pig]

Interesting. Are there secular* or diocesan* celibate Eastern Orthodox priests or is priestly celibacy only or mostly lived in religious communities of some kind?

*Not sure if this is the correct term in Eastern Orthodoxy.

Most Orthodox priests who are unmarried live in a monastic community, but not all. Orthodox parishioners tend to be quite attached to their married priests. The Russians differentiate between "white" (non-monastic parishes) and "black" (monastic) clergy, but I'm not sure if that explicit distinction is also made outside of Russia.

[robrecht]

Most Orthodox priests who are unmarried live in a monastic community, but not all. Orthodox parishioners tend to be quite attached to their married priests. The Russians differentiate between "white" (non-monastic parishes) and "black" (monastic) clergy, but I'm not sure if that explicit distinction is also made outside of Russia.

Interesting. Are the monastic clergy called 'black' because they tend to wear black robes or habits, whereas the nonmonastic clergy do not?

[One Bad Pig]

Interesting. Are the monastic clergy called 'black' because they tend to wear black robes or habits, whereas the nonmonastic clergy do not?

I'm not entirely sure. Monastics do wear black clothing.

[shunyadragon]

Celibate. Yes, of course. Because bishops are chosen from among priests, who are required to promise celibacy prior to ordination. Did you somehow imagine that I was denying that?

On the other hand, I suppose it is possible for a married priest in the Roman catholic church, eg, one who converted from Anglicanism after already being ordained, to be elevated to the episcopacy.

Your description as to what is 'voluntary' is confusing. It is obvious that it is voluntary to choose to enter one of the celibate orders of the Roman Church. It is not a voluntary option for a member of the order to marry.

[One Bad Pig]

Your description as to what is 'voluntary' is confusing. It is obvious that it is voluntary to choose to enter one of the celibate orders of the Roman Church. It is not a voluntary option for a member of the order to marry.

How is that confusing? And why is this topic causing you so much evident angst? What's it matter to you if someone takes a vow of celibacy?

[robrecht]

Your description as to what is 'voluntary' is confusing. It is obvious that it is voluntary to choose to enter one of the celibate orders of the Roman Church. It is not a voluntary option for a member of the order to marry.

Sorry if I confused you. I see you've clarified your own expression of your position by using my suggested word 'optional'.

[shunyadragon]

To those that believe the Roman Church is the Catholic Church. I do not consider the Roman Church Catholic, therefore it is simple the Roman Church headed by the Bishop of Rome.

[shunyadragon]

How is that confusing? And why is this topic causing you so much evident angst? What's it matter to you if someone takes a vow of celibacy?

Like in many churches the vow of celibacy is 'optional' for the priesthood, some with options of different orders. In the Roman Church this choice is not 'optional.' I consider this 'discipline' as an unnatural demand that has ramifications throughout the history of the Roman Church. It is not a question of a matter to me, except wide spread sexual abuse and dishonest sexual relationships have plagued the Orders of the Roman Church throughout its history. This alone brings to question the veracity of the claims of the Roman Church as being the Catholic Church for humanity.

[OingoBoingo]

This alone brings to question the voracity of the claims of the Roman Church as being the Catholic Church for humanity.