Catholic Problems

[37818]

Well, seeing as how I just recently debated an anti-Roman Jansenist heretic (Quite well, if I do say so myself :D), it put me in a debating mood, and there isn't a thread like this yet, I'll be the first to do something like this. To anyone either is not a Roman Catholic, or was one and left, I want to know: Why? Tell me any problems you have with the Church of Rome, and I'll answer them to the best of my abilities.

The Roman Church teaches the obtaining of God's grace through rites versus through faith in God's Christ alone.

"Whosoever believeth Jesus is the Christ is born of God, . . . " -- 1 John 5:1.
And the new birth is what God does and gives the believer, "Who were born, . . . of God." -- John 1:13.
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, . . ." -- James 1:18.

[TimelessTheist]

The Roman Church teaches the obtaining of God's grace through rites versus through faith in God's Christ alone.

"Whosoever believeth Jesus is the Christ is born of God, . . . " -- 1 John 5:1.
And the new birth is what God does and gives the believer, "Who were born, . . . of God." -- John 1:13.
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, . . ." -- James 1:18.

John 6:54-Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

[TimelessTheist]

It's anti-beef.

I'm fairly sure this has been the most unfunny joke session next to a Carlos Mencia stand-up act, so thanks for that.

[Manw� S�limo]

He who eats of my processed beef and drinks of my large Mello Yello shall wish they were dead before the last day.

[37818]

John 6:54-Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Agreed. Since that does not say any rite (work) is needed to obtain God's grace here.

" That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. . . ." -- John 3:15.
". . . And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. . . . " -- John 6:35, . . 63.
". . . He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . . " -- 1 John 5:12, 13.

[TimelessTheist]

Agreed. Since that does not say any rite (work) is needed to obtain God's grace here.

Uh, yeah he did. He just said that anyone who takes the Eucharist will be ensured eternal life.

" That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. . . ." -- John 3:15.
". . . And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. . . . " -- John 6:35, . . 63.
". . . He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . . " -- 1 John 5:12, 13.

Yes, however, belief only gets you entry into the covenant. In order to keep it, you must be given the sacraments, as long as you have access to them, that is.

[Paprika]

Uh, yeah he did. He just said that anyone who takes the Eucharist will be ensured eternal life.

This doesn't mean that it's necessary to eat the Eucharist to get eternal life.

[robrecht]

The Roman Church teaches the obtaining of God's grace through rites versus through faith in God's Christ alone.

I think that is a mischaracterization of the Catholic theologies of the sacraments. The fundamental maxim of any Catholic sacramental theology was expressed by St Augustine when he said that 'we are bound by the sacraments, but God is not'. We have lots of rules and teachings about sacraments to try and maintain church order, but the rite itself has no salvific power apart from the faith of the community, of which the rite is but an expression.

[RBerman]

John 6:54-Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Surely you know that the context within which Jesus said this was not the Eucharist, but rather the necessity of belief in himself as the way to eternal life, as opposed to simply looking to the bread that he had miraculously provided for the crowd.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

[TimelessTheist]

Surely you know that the context within which Jesus said this was not the Eucharist, but rather the necessity of belief in himself as the way to eternal life, as opposed to simply looking to the bread that he had miraculously provided for the crowd.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Well, considering he called the bread "his flesh", and the wine "his blood", and said this right after he delivered the teachings of the Eucharist, yes, that is exactly the context. If you have faith, it's a given that you should follow the sacraments as well.

[37818]

Well, considering he called the bread "his flesh", and the wine "his blood", and said this right after he delivered the teachings of the Eucharist, yes, that is exactly the context. If you have faith, it's a given that you should follow the sacraments as well.

Not unless you consider God to be a photon (1 John 1:5). The language Jesus used as it reads in the Greek is metaphor, not to be taken as actually His body and blood, seeing that when He instituted the "remembrance" (Luke 22:19).

[Spartacus]

Not unless you consider God to be a photon (1 John 1:5). The language Jesus used as it reads in the Greek is metaphor, not to be taken as actually His body and blood, seeing that when He instituted the "remembrance" (Luke 22:19).

Jesus never pointed to a beam of light and said, "this is me." He did, however, do this to the bread and wine.

[RBerman]

Well, considering he called the bread "his flesh", and the wine "his blood", and said this right after he delivered the teachings of the Eucharist, yes, that is exactly the context. If you have faith, it's a given that you should follow the sacraments as well.

Same phrase, but different passage; different context. The much-lower-than-God "Son of Man" in Jeremiah is not the messianic "Son of Man" of Daniel, for instance. Within the context of John 6, Jesus uses a bread metaphor because the people were fixated on the bread he had just given them miraculously. It's simply acontextual to say that Jesus' "bread of life" comments were about the Eucharistic bread, whether as a physical accident or transubstantiatively and mystically linked to Christ. Jesus explains his own terms in that passage: "eating the bread" means believing in Jesus.

[37818]

Jesus never pointed to a beam of light and said, "this is me." He did, however, do this to the bread and wine.

Well no. Not quite true. Jesus used metaphor, the bread representing His body broken, and the cup what was in it representing His blood shed. It was instituted as a remembrance of His death. The word of God does not say anything more. Interpreters of God's word do. Besides that, Judas who betrayed Christ, took of that supper too (Luke 22:19-22).

[37818]

Remember my objection?

The Roman Church teaches the obtaining of God's grace through rites versus through faith in God's Christ alone.

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."-- John 6:54.

Uh, yeah he did. He just said that anyone who takes the Eucharist will be ensured eternal life.

Well that is how you are interpreting it. But Jesus was speaking in metaphor of coming and believing in Him in that context. Which is somewhat different than metaphor used at the institution of the remembrance of His death. You have been taught to conflate these teachings, have you not?

" That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. . . ." -- John 3:15.
". . . And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . . It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. . . . " -- John 6:35, . . 63.
". . . He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . . " -- 1 John 5:12, 13.

Yes, however, belief only gets you entry into the covenant. In order to keep it, you must be given the sacraments, as long as you have access to them, that is.

As you are reading it. Yet Jesus promised the possession of eternal life.
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."-- John 6:54
" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." -- John 6:47.
These two teachings are synonymous. Bible believing Christians know they have eternal life (1 John 5:1, 12, 13).