Catholic Problems

[robrecht]

But at least he's making progress on the voluntary/optional front!

[OingoBoingo]

But at least he's making progress on the voluntary/optional front!

The key is to allow him to think it was his view all along.

[TimelessTheist]

This thread is still alive?!

[Just Some Dude]

The thread is actually a zombie.

[One Bad Pig]

The thread is actually a zombie.

These threads are far too fresh to zombify.

[shunyadragon]

It depends on the church and how 'catholic' is used. The word means 'universal.' In the Methodist Church the word catholic refers to all Christian believers who believe in the Apostolic Creed. In the Roman Church it means that it is the one and only church for all of humanity.

[shunyadragon]

But at least he's making progress on the voluntary/optional front!

The use of voluntary/optional was your option. The difference in the meaning in the dialogue concerning the problems of celibacy is not significant. The problems remain.

[robrecht]

It depends on the church and how 'catholic' is used. The word means 'universal.' In the Methodist Church the word catholic refers to all Christian believers who believe in the Apostolic Creed. In the Roman Church it means that it is the one and only church for all of humanity.

He was commenting on your use of the word 'voracity', not 'catholic'.

[robrecht]

The use of voluntary/optional was your option. The difference in the meaning in the dialogue concerning the problems of celibacy is not significant. The problems remain.

It is only significant because people could not understand what you were saying or dismissed it. Celibacy is voluntary but it is not optional for those who currently want to be Catholic priests. I agree that that there are problems with celibacy as currently required by the Roman Catholic church of their diocesan priests.

[shunyadragon]

It is only significant because people could not understand what you were saying or dismissed it. Celibacy is voluntary but it is not optional for those who currently want to be Catholic priests. I agree that that there are problems with celibacy as currently required by the Roman Catholic church of their diocesan priests.

It is not voluntary if you wish to be, ie have the calling to serve, a priest of the Roman Church. The problems persist no matter how you try and word.

[robrecht]

It is not voluntary if you wish to be, ie have the calling to serve, a priest of the Roman Church. The problems persist no matter how you try and word.

I have never ever tried to deny or minimize the problems. Again I think you would be better served by the use of the term 'optional' rather than 'voluntary' as has been demonstrated by the fact that people have misunderstood your claim here. In other words, it is not optional if you wish to be a Roman Catholic priest in response to a perceived calling to be such, but the response to this calling and the seeking of ordination within the Roman Catholic Church is entirely voluntary.

[shunyadragon]

I have never ever tried to deny or minimize the problems. Again I think you would be better served by the use of the term 'optional' rather than 'voluntary' as has been demonstrated by the fact that people have misunderstood your claim here. In other words, it is not optional if you wish to be a Roman Catholic priest in response to a perceived calling to be such, but the response to this calling and the seeking of ordination within the Roman Catholic Church is entirely voluntary.

It is neither optional nor voluntary if one believes that they have the calling to serve as priest in the Roman Church. The individual in this case has no voluntary choice nor option in the decision if one desires to be a priest.

[robrecht]

It is neither optional nor voluntary if one believes that they have the calling to serve as priest in the Roman Church. The individual in this case has no voluntary choice nor option in the decision if one desires to be a priest.

The decision as to how one chooses to respond to a discerned calling to the priesthood, ie, the belief that one has a vocation, is entirely voluntary. If someone feels compelled or under any compulsion to be ordained that might even be considered a good indication by those who are also tasked with the discernment of a vocation (ordination is not merely an individual choice) that the person seeking ordination does not in fact have a vocation. From my own personal perspective, a vocation should only be pursued as an option among other options, a free choice motivated only out of love, which is alway free.

[shunyadragon]

He was commenting on your use of the word 'voracity', not 'catholic'.

Being anal attentive as to a typo is just ducking the issue as to the problem in the Roman Church which is avoided.

Like in many churches the vow of celibacy is 'optional' for the priesthood, some with options of different orders. In the Roman Church this choice is not 'optional.' I consider this 'discipline' as an unnatural demand that has ramifications throughout the history of the Roman Church. It is not a question of a matter to my preferences, except wide spread sexual abuse and dishonest sexual relationships have plagued the Orders of the Roman Church throughout its history. This alone brings to question the veracity of the claims of the Roman Church as being the Catholic Church for humanity.

The bottom line is my problem with the Roman church is not with individual issues. I do not believe in picking and choosing to believe based on what shoes fit best for me personally, nor relying on what I have been taught when I was growing up in the church. The question is 'Does it represent the Universal within the possibly human constraints of understanding, as it claims to be 'Catholic.' My answer is an overwhelming no. Looking at the history of the Roman Church I find very human institutions struggling with a changing world outside the Church.

[robrecht]

Being anal attentive as to a typo is just ducking the issue as to the problem in the Roman Church which is avoided.

What problem in the Roman Catholic Church are you accusing me of ducking???