Is Epiphenomenalism Irrational?

[Truthseeker]

Well I'm glad you conceded that epiphenominalism isn't irrational.

No less rational than a hammer.

The appeal of my position is based on good evidence, and you should accept good evidence regardless of whether you want it to be true or not, but of course you don't care about evidence.

Surely you meant, "Good and sufficient evidence?

Oh, and on Christianity when you do "wicked or immoral things" you don't have to pay the consequences because you are saved by faith and can scapegoat your punishment onto Jesus. So I can rape and murder 50 kids and all I have to do is accept Jesus as my savior and I'm clean.

You misunderstand what happens just before death. If the dying person is truly penitential in the end . . .

[seer]

Oh, and on Christianity when you do "wicked or immoral things" you don't have to pay the consequences because you are saved by faith and can scapegoat your punishment onto Jesus. So I can rape and murder 50 kids and all I have to do is accept Jesus as my savior and I'm clean.

Nonsense, since there are degrees of rewards in the next life even for those who are saved. Besides Christians attempt to do good because they love God and their fellow man. But as studies show (which you guys live and die by) those who don't believe in freedom of the will tend to be more unethical: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18181791

That explains a lot!

The appeal of my position is based on good evidence, and you should accept good evidence regardless of whether you want it to be true or not, but of course you don't care about evidence.

How do you know that your brain is processing the evidence correctly? Or even deceiving you about what is evidence? And as far as your position, ten or twelve years ago, as a 5 point Calvinist, I would have fully agreed with your position on determinism, with or without epiphenominalism thrown in. Then I grew up and took responsibility for my actions.

[Tassman]

Nonsense, since there are degrees of rewards in the next life even for those who are saved.

What's the substantive evidence of a post mortem existence again? Oh, that's right there isn't any.

Besides Christians attempt to do good because they love God and their fellow man.

Christians are no better than anyone else in this regard. Most people attempt to do good because they have evolved as altruistic, mutually reciprocal social beings with a predisposition to conform to the rules of the group. It's a naturally selected survival mechanism for a social species like us.

But as studies show (which you guys live and die by) those who don't believe in freedom of the will tend to be more unethical:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18181791

That explains a lot!

No, it explains what just one quote-mined study says.

How do you know that your brain is processing the evidence correctly? Or even deceiving you about what is evidence? And as far as your position, ten or twelve years ago, as a 5 point Calvinist, I would have fully agreed with your position on determinism, with or without epiphenominalism thrown in. Then I grew up and took responsibility for my actions.

How do you know that your brain is processing the evidence correctly?

[seer]

No, it explains what just one quote-mined study says.

Where did I quote mine anything - be specific please.

How do you know that your brain is processing the evidence correctly?

Because unlike with epiphenominalism, I believe that our conscious rational minds play a causal role in discovering truth. Not that non-rational chemicals just dictate what you are to believe - true or not.

[Tassman]

Because unlike with epiphenominalism, I believe that our conscious rational minds play a causal role in discovering truth. Not that non-rational chemicals just dictate what you are to believe - true or not.

"our conscious rational minds play a causal role in discovering truth" without any input from subconscious influences, social acculturation, specific brain-states (including damaged or ageing brains), intelligence and a host of other variables? Please explain how "our conscious rational minds" override all these other factors. And does this occur among other creatures, e.g. our fellow primates such as bonobos and chimpanzees as well? Why not?

[seer]

"our conscious rational minds play a causal role in discovering truth" without any input from subconscious influences, social acculturation, specific brain-states (including damaged or ageing brains), intelligence and a host of other variables? Please explain how "our conscious rational minds" override all these other factors. And does this occur among other creatures, e.g. our fellow primates such as bonobos and chimpanzees as well? Why not?

I did not say that our conscious mind necessarily override all other inputs, but that it does play a causal role in the process. If it doesn't rational deliberation plays no part in discovering or knowing facts or truth. That is all done by non-rational chemicals that care nothing for these things.

[Tassman]

I did not say that our conscious mind necessarily override all other inputs, but that it does play a causal role in the process. If it doesn't rational deliberation plays no part in discovering or knowing facts or truth. That is all done by non-rational chemicals that care nothing for these things.

"Rational deliberation" obviously plays a role to some degree, but the larger role derives from subconscious influences, social acculturation, specific brain-states (including damaged or ageing brains), intelligence, education levels and a host of other variables...how could it be otherwise? Nevertheless, we all live under the appearance of having choice and act accordingly, even the hard determinists.

[seer]

"Rational deliberation" obviously plays a role to some degree, but the larger role derives from subconscious influences, social acculturation, specific brain-states (including damaged or ageing brains), intelligence, education levels and a host of other variables...how could it be otherwise? Nevertheless, we all live under the appearance of having choice and act accordingly, even the hard determinists.

What do you mean that that conscious rational deliberation obviously plays a role? That is exactly what Epiphenomenalism denies - our conscious rational thoughts are akin to the steam coming off a steam engine - it is useless, plays no role in the process.

[The Thinker]

Nonsense, since there are degrees of rewards in the next life even for those who are saved. Besides Christians attempt to do good because they love God and their fellow man.

Nonsense seer, you're just making up crap about what the afterlife is like. On Christianity you are saved by faith and faith alone, not deeds. Just as Paul says in Gal 2. Doing good because you love god is silly and most Christians do good because they think they'll get a reward in the afterlife. It's all selfish really. Atheists do good because we love our fellow human beings and we see that it makes society a more pleasant place.

But as studies show (which you guys live and die by) those who don't believe in freedom of the will tend to be more unethical: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18181791

That explains a lot!

That study was reproduced (along with 100 other studies recently) and the second time they did it they found the effect much weaker.

Free Will and Cheating

In 2008, a paper in Psychological Science found that people were more likely to cheat on a test after they had read an essay arguing that behavior was predetermined by environmental factors. The authors suggested from their findings that belief in free will had societal implications.

The redone study found an effect pointing in the same direction as the original, but far weaker. One possible reason, the authors suggest, had to do with how subjects' opinions about free will were manipulated. Participants read an essay, and it's plausible that they were not as engaged in reading and thinking about it as were those in the first study.

The study was cited 341 times in other journals, the most of any of the 100 studies that the Reproducibility Project tried to replicate. There are 24 citations listed in the PubMed database.

In popular news media at the time, the study was covered with a focus on what it meant for societal belief in free will. A Scientific American report in August 2008 called the study clever and added, "The results were clear: Those who read the anti-free-will text cheated more often!" In Psychology Today in March 2008, a reporter wrote, "Reducing belief in free will might also make people exercise less and drink more." A New York Times story in February of the same year said that the researchers interpreted their findings to raise, "questions about how human behavior might change if the belief in free will continued to decrease." However, it added that the researchers, "cautioned against reading too much into the results."

How do you know that your brain is processing the evidence correctly? Or even deceiving you about what is evidence?

I know because my brain can rationally process data and I can test my beliefs against evidence. We've been over this 20 times already.

And as far as your position, ten or twelve years ago, as a 5 point Calvinist, I would have fully agreed with your position on determinism, with or without epiphenominalism thrown in. Then I grew up and took responsibility for my actions.

You grew up? Really? So basically you decided believing things that are logically incoherent and refuted by science because it makes you feel better? That's what children do.

[seer]

Nonsense seer, you're just making up crap about what the afterlife is like. On Christianity you are saved by faith and faith alone, not deeds. Just as Paul says in Gal 2. Doing good because you love god is silly and most Christians do good because they think they'll get a reward in the afterlife. It's all selfish really. Atheists do good because we love our fellow human beings and we see that it makes society a more pleasant place.

I'm not making anything up Thinker. Most Christian I know act out of gratitude towards God, with love for Him and our fellow man. We don't try and see how much we can sin and get away with.

That study was reproduced (along with 100 other studies recently) and the second time they did it they found the effect much weaker.

Weaker but still a fact. But it makes sense, if you really believe that you are not responsible for your actions why not give way to your more base impulses? But like I said, I see the appeal of your determinism, after all how can one really be morally responsible for behaviors we ultimately have no control over.

You grew up? Really? So basically you decided believing things that are logically incoherent and refuted by science because it makes you feel better? That's what children do.

No children blame everyone else for their bad behavior. In the case of determinism we blame antecedent conditions that we have no control over.

I know because my brain can rationally process data and I can test my beliefs against evidence. We've been over this 20 times already.

Right 20 times and you still make no sense since your conscious conclusions play no role in the process (steam off the steam engine - meaningless), and your determinism would color everything including what you considered evidence, and how you processed evidence.

[The Thinker]

I'm not making anything up Thinker. Most Christian I know act out of gratitude towards God, with love for Him and our fellow man. We don't try and see how much we can sin and get away with.

You're making up your idea of what the afterlife is like. I didn't say that in relation to your point about why Christians behave good or bad.

Weaker but still a fact. But it makes sense, if you really believe that you are not responsible for your actions why not give way to your more base impulses? But like I said, I see the appeal of your determinism, after all how can one really be morally responsible for behaviors we ultimately have no control over.

I don't accept determinism because I want to be irresponsible. I accept it because the evidence points in that direction. See, unlike you, I don't base my beliefs on what I want to be true. But I can definitely see the appeal of your faith. After all, death is scary. Most of us want to live past our deaths and be reunited with our loved ones.

No children blame everyone else for their bad behavior. In the case of determinism we blame antecedent conditions that we have no control over.

No. Children believe in magic, just like you do.

Right 20 times and you still make no sense since your conscious conclusions play no role in the process (steam off the steam engine - meaningless), and your determinism would color everything including what you considered evidence, and how you processed evidence.

My brain plays a role. The brain is everything. Consciousness just allows us to subjectively experience what our brain is doing. So there is nothing incoherent about my view. Your view on the other hand is incoherent. The brain plays no role, and LFW is incoherent. Again, basically you decided believing things that are logically incoherent and refuted by science because it makes you feel better. This is what religion does to the brain.

[The Thinker]

You misunderstand what happens just before death. If the dying person is truly penitential in the end . . .

...then they could have spent their life torturing and killing children for fun and they get to go to heaven. Yay!

[seer]

You're making up your idea of what the afterlife is like. I didn't say that in relation to your point about why Christians behave good or bad.

No Thinker, I'm telling you what Scripture teaches about rewards in the afterlife. http://coldcasechristianity.com/2012...ard-in-heaven/

I don't accept determinism because I want to be irresponsible. I accept it because the evidence points in that direction. See, unlike you, I don't base my beliefs on what I want to be true. But I can definitely see the appeal of your faith. After all, death is scary. Most of us want to live past our deaths and be reunited with our loved ones.

What do you mean you don't accept determinism because you want to be irresponsible? How the hell do you even know that? Perhaps your brain chemicals do want to be irresponsible, but they are deceiving you into believing otherwise. You know those brain chemicals can be tricky. But again, any personal sense of moral responsibility is still out the window with determinism.

No. Children believe in magic, just like you do.

And they blame other things for their bad behavior just like you do.

My brain plays a role. The brain is everything. Consciousness just allows us to subjectively experience what our brain is doing. So there is nothing incoherent about my view. Your view on the other hand is incoherent. The brain plays no role, and LFW is incoherent. Again, basically you decided believing things that are logically incoherent and refuted by science because it makes you feel better. This is what religion does to the brain.

Do you get how stupid this sounds Thinker? If you are correct I had no choice but to be religious - I was determined to be thus. And religion did not do this to my brain, my brain did this to me, my brain made me religious. As a matter of fact our brains have deceived the majority of humankind for the majority of history. So what has your brain deceived you about?

[The Thinker]

No Thinker, I'm telling you what Scripture teaches about rewards in the afterlife. http://coldcasechristianity.com/2012...ard-in-heaven/

That's pretty vague.

What do you mean you don't accept determinism because you want to be irresponsible? How the hell do you even know that? Perhaps your brain chemicals do want to be irresponsible, but they are deceiving you into believing otherwise. You know those brain chemicals can be tricky.

My consciousness is what my brain chemicals are doing. There is no difference where the brain does X and I think Y. But it's hilarious that you're still debating from the perspective of LFW even thought it's totally incoherent. LOL.

But again, any personal sense of moral responsibility is still out the window with determinism.

Same thing is true on Christianity since Jesus already paid all your bills.

And they blame other things for their bad behavior just like you do.

But they don't use logic and scientific evidence like I do, they make things up that don't even make sense, like you do.

Do you get how stupid this sounds Thinker? If you are correct I had no choice but to be religious - I was determined to be thus. And religion did not do this to my brain, my brain did this to me, my brain made me religious. As a matter of fact our brains have deceived the majority of humankind for the majority of history. So what has your brain deceived you about?

Does a person raised in Saudi Arabia have a choice in not being a Muslim? Does a person raised in North Korea have a choice in worshiping the Dear Leader? Are you aware that the vast, vast majority of people believe the religion they were raised in? And that a person's contingent circumstances is the biggest factor in what religion they believe? Does anyone get to choose their parents, or country, or when they're born? The answer to all of this is no.

Religion did do that to your brain. Your brain would have never made you a Christian all by itself. Your environment made you and shaped your brain the way it is. By interacting with you I'm hoping my views will have a causal effect of your brain, just like your religious environment did.

[seer]

That's pretty vague.

Not to me, it was pretty clear, but the point is I did not just make it up.

My consciousness is what my brain chemicals are doing. There is no difference where the brain does X and I think Y. But it's hilarious that you're still debating from the perspective of LFW even thought it's totally incoherent. LOL.

And if your brain chemicals cause you to believe a lie to be true you would.

Same thing is true on Christianity since Jesus already paid all your bills.

Well we know that when you deny freedom of the will it leads to more unethical behavior. Every Christian I know had better behavior after conversion than before. And the fact that we are responsible for said behaviors.

But they don't use logic and scientific evidence like I do, they make things up that don't even make sense, like you do.

Yes the science that tells you that you are not responsible for your ethical behavior, no matter how immoral. Isn't determinism wonderful !

Religion did do that to your brain. Your brain would have never made you a Christian all by itself. Your environment made you and shaped your brain the way it is. By interacting with you I'm hoping my views will have a causal effect of your brain, just like your religious environment did.

It doesn't matter what variable you throw in, it is still totally out of my control. Whether it is my brain alone or with antecedent conditions I still have no choice. So yes, my brain is largely responsible for my religious beliefs, and according to your worldview it deceived me. And remember I was agnostic for the first 37 years of my life - I guess along the way my brain decided to trick me. So again, what has your brain deceived you about?