Originally posted by JimL
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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What Is Man?
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes and they are as purposeless and meaningless as we as a race are.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostPurposeless and meaningless to who? If god doesn't exist, would you rather live in a world without justice, without a moral system? Of course you wouldn't, it would be idiocy to say that you would. All you are concerned with seer is your continued and eternal existence, and therefore you need an ultimate meaning and purpose for your existence. Meaning and purpose are relative to the living, when your dead, your dead.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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A common religion or totalitarian rule can also be meaningful component of maintaining a cohesive society. So?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOf course like any animal I would like to live, and I personally would like to live in a particular kind of world, but the Communists and ISIS want to live in different kind of world. And my preference is objectively no more valid or moral than theirs.
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Originally posted by seer View PostA common religion or totalitarian rule can also be meaningful component of maintaining a cohesive society. So?
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Originally posted by seer View PostA common religion or totalitarian rule can also be meaningful component of maintaining a cohesive society. So?
Totalitarian regimes can enforce their ideologies on the populace. But enforced conformity is not the same as a cohesive society. The latter comes from within. For a truly cohesive society the components binding it together must be acceptable to the members of said society and will contain quality of life issues such as sufficient income, a good environment, health care, decent education, leisure time, and a sense of social belonging. The less of these components, the less cohesive is the society and the more prone to violence it will be.Last edited by Tassman; 01-02-2016, 01:11 AM.
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social cohesion and meaning---For any expression of "meaning", language is the first necessary component. Even if human values and desires/aspirations are universal, their expression may be various. For example, the pursuit of happiness is universal---how this is expressed and consequently how it is achieved may be various. Buddhism expresses the pursuit of happiness as the reduction of suffering---and consequently works on achieving such a result, Islam expresses the pursuit of happiness as the promotion of peace....etc....the end goal of everyone is the same but the language used to express and implement it makes it seem different.
Language is also helpful for "identity"---which is a necessary component of social cohesion. Human beings have individual identity (names) but it is the nature of human beings to be social/part of groups and groups also form identities. Group identities are not just labels that differentiate but can also be linked to the purpose of their existence and "purpose" identifies "meaning".
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Originally posted by siam View Postsocial cohesion and meaning---For any expression of "meaning", language is the first necessary component. Even if human values and desires/aspirations are universal, their expression may be various. For example, the pursuit of happiness is universal---how this is expressed and consequently how it is achieved may be various. Buddhism expresses the pursuit of happiness as the reduction of suffering---and consequently works on achieving such a result, Islam expresses the pursuit of happiness as the promotion of peace....etc....the end goal of everyone is the same but the language used to express and implement it makes it seem different.
Language is also helpful for "identity"---which is a necessary component of social cohesion. Human beings have individual identity (names) but it is the nature of human beings to be social/part of groups
and groups also form identities. Group identities are not just labels that differentiate but can also be linked to the purpose of their existence and "purpose" identifies "meaning".
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Originally posted by seer View PostTwo very stark views of mankind. In one men are just the accidental by product of the forces of nature, no ultimate purpose, no overriding justice - in reality no good or evil. In the other view men have a purpose, were created for a reason. And have a future - what we do here has eternal consequences raising our behavior to a level far beyond what is the case in a godless universe. Our behaviors are much more important because we are much more important.
Now to some specifics.
"....no overriding justice..."
".....in reality no good or evil...."
In the other view men have a purpose, were created for a reason.
And have a future - what we do here has eternal consequences raising our behavior to a level far beyond what is the case in a godless universe.
Our behaviors are much more important because we are much more important.Blog: Atheism and the City
If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.
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Originally posted by seer View PostWas it the purpose of past species that went extinct to survive?Blog: Atheism and the City
If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.
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Originally posted by The Thinker View PostYou couldn't even define "justice" when I challenged you to. Without a logically coherent definition, you have no basis to claim Christianity (or theism) gives you justice and atheism doesn't. "Justice" would be completely arbitrary, and thus, baseless.
If we're "saved" by faith, as Paul says in Gal 2, then I can rape and torture children for 50 years and get to heaven, while a humble Muslim who harmed no one gets eternal hell. So you're not even right here.Last edited by seer; 01-05-2016, 06:46 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense, in your godless universe there is no ultimate justice, nor can there be. With God there certainly can be, even if could not fully define it. Our lack of knowledge would not change its existence nor make it arbitrary. You are again confusing ontology with epistemology. And of course the Christian can define justice. Those who love God and attempt to do good are rewarded, those who reject Him, are judged and perish.
Second, I'm not at all confusing ontology with epistemology. We aren't debating ontology right now. Epistemically, you can't even know what justice is since you've utterly failed to define it. That means whatever god does, even if he rewards atheists and punishes theists, to you is "justice." If you claim that's impossible, then you must be making that claim from a theory of justice, which would force you to define justice so it isn't some arbitrary concoction.
Third, many Christians disagree with the idea that god rewards/punishes. The Lutheran view is that we are saved purely through faith, as Paul says in Galatians 2. Salvation is an act of mercy, because we all deserve hell, no matter how good we've behaved in this life. The famous apologist William Lane Craig actually wrote this to me:
The Bible says that all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
First Thinker, I lean towards a more inclusive view here, I don't think the Muslim you describe is necessarily lost. He will not be saved apart from Christ but there may be second chances. Second, does it bother you that God forgives? Would not justice also included the full reformation of the wicked man, if possible?
To your second point, if god exists, and wants us to "know him" and believe in him and worship him, as almost every theist has told me, then why make the rules on this so confusing? Are we "saved" from (1) faith, (2) faith + works, (3) just works, or (4) something else? The Bible isn't even clear on this.Blog: Atheism and the City
If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.
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Originally posted by The Thinker View PostBut if you cannot define "justice" then you have no right to claim god offers justice. What if god rewarded atheists for their skepticism and punished theists for their naivety and gullibility? Would you accept that as justice? Basically, all you've ever offered me is blank claim that god offers justice, but you have provided absolutely no definition or logical reasons to think that's true.
Second, I'm not at all confusing ontology with epistemology. We aren't debating ontology right now. Epistemically, you can't even know what justice is since you've utterly failed to define it. That means whatever god does, even if he rewards atheists and punishes theists, to you is "justice." If you claim that's impossible, then you must be making that claim from a theory of justice, which would force you to define justice so it isn't some arbitrary concoction.
Third, many Christians disagree with the idea that god rewards/punishes. The Lutheran view is that we are saved purely through faith, as Paul says in Galatians 2. Salvation is an act of mercy, because we all deserve hell, no matter how good we've behaved in this life. The famous apologist William Lane Craig actually wrote this to me:
You have no way of knowing whether this view is right over yours. And also what if someone does "good" but doesn't love god, or your god? And what is good? You've never defined that. How is someone supposed to know what's good and what isn't in order to get this "reward"?
Why is believing a condition that must be met in order to avoid being "lost"? Why should believing silly things be a factor in how one's afterlife is? And also, if actions are a factor, then you need to logically explain libertarian free will which you haven't. You've only just asserted it.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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