Nothingness

[robertb]

This is what I meant above when I said that the physics explanation of B-theory doesn't explain experience. If all locations in time are co-existent why is the experience of time one directional? The state of the entropy in locations of time doesn't speak to actual experience.

The state of matter in your brain, determined by that entropy, does.

[Carrikature]

You lost me. No explanation for what? The fact that no ne has ever observed otherwise is due to entropy. Remember, you are part of the universe as well.

I think we need to back up quite a bit.

Let's say we have three types of energy: energy we're currently using (kinetic energy), energy we could use (potential energy), and energy that is not available to use (entropy). In a closed system (in this case, the universe), the total amount of energy is unchanged. We might, however, observe various values for the three energy types. We can use the (x,y,z,t) system to denote space-time.

Under A-theory, entropy increases as time progresses. That is, if we measure the amount of useable energy (kinetic plus potential) at the same (x,y,z) point in space, the value decreases as 't' increases. At the singularity, we might claim that all energy was potential. The Big Bang would be a massive conversion from potential to kinetic, with some increase in entropy. Over time, more and more energy is converted to entropy. Under A-theory, there is a complete, system-wide increase in unusable energy as we move along the t-axis. We describe this as the universe itself undergoing change. This change is also considered to be permanent. We can't move 'back' along the t-axis or increase useable energy. Time-symmetry is not observed.

Under B-theory, the system (universe) does not undergo change. Observed values of the various energy types will be different at each (x,y,z,t) point. We can compare these values and find that useable energy at (x1,y1,z1,t1) is significantly higher than at (x1,y1,z1,t5). Nothing has changed except which point we're observing. We should be able to move relatively freely between observable points.

Which view is correct? If B-theory is correct, the system should be time-symmetric. That is, we should be able to move bi-directionally along the t-axis. We could move in a certain direction along the t-axis and watch entropy increase, then move the other direction and watch entropy decrease. Theoretically, this should be the case. There's nothing contained in B-theory that dictates that an observer can only move in a single direction along the t-axis or that all objects would move along the t-axis in the same direction.

However, our experience and observation is 100% that of moving only in a single direction along the t-axis and that all objects move in the same direction. Time-symmetry is not observed. Even if we allowed that we do all move in the same direction under B-theory, we could conceivably observe a constant decrease in entropy. Instead, we observe that entropy always increases. Proponents of B-theory need to explain why it is that 1) all things move together, and 2) we only observe an increase in entropy.

I do not reject B-theory outright. Rather, I think that proponents of B-theory need to explain why we observe what we observe when it is not necessary under the system they've proposed.

[JimL]

The state of matter in your brain, determined by that entropy, does.

But my brain is in every state of entropy in differents locations in time, in B-theory every menal state exist and is just as real as any other, so if that is true, and if time itself doesn't flow, then why is it that I am only aware of one of those brain states over any of the others?

[robertb]

But my brain is in every state of entropy in differents locations in time, in B-theory every menal state exist and is just as real as any other, so if that is true, and if time itself doesn't flow, then why is it that I am only aware of one of those brain states over any of the others?

You are the sum total of all of your prior brain states, that's why.

[Carrikature]

You are the sum total of all of your prior brain states, that's why.

I'm so glad you brought this up.


Brain State (BS_n) = Current Experience (C_n) + Total Memories (Tm_n), where each memory (m_n) is identical to C_n-1

SO:

BS₀ = C₀+Tm₀; Tm₀ = 0 (no memories yet).

BS₁ = C₁+Tm₁; Tm₁= C₀

BS₂ = C₂+Tm₂; Tm₂= C₀+C₁

BS₃ = C₃+Tm₃; Tm₃= C₀+C₁+C₂

...


Tm is ever increasing. I think this is a pretty good reason to believe time is asymmetric.

[JimL]

You are the sum total of all of your prior brain states, that's why.

But the future me as well as the past me, is also the sum total of all their prior brain states so the fact that the present me is the sum total of all my prior brain states doesn't explain why only the present is experiential. Or are you suggesting that there is a distinct me existing in each instant of time, that there is a me located in the future and a me located in the past that are both co-existent with the me located in the present, each experiencing their own distinct instants of time dependent upon their location in time. If so, I'll have to think about it, but I'm not sure that is sufficient in explaining the associated illusion, according to B-theory, of times flow.

[seer]

But the future me as well as the past me, is also the sum total of all their prior brain states so the fact that the present me is the sum total of all my prior brain states doesn't explain why only the present is experiential. Or are you suggesting that there is a distinct me existing in each instant of time, that there is a me located in the future and a me located in the past that are both co-existent with the me located in the present, each experiencing their own distinct instants of time dependent upon their location in time. If so, I'll have to think about it, but I'm not sure that is sufficient in explaining the associated illusion, according to B-theory, of times flow.

But why, if there is a distinct me existing in each instant of time, do we have knowledge of our past self, but not our future self?

[robrecht]

I don't see how anything like human consciousness can be accounted for within the B-Theory. Seems to me it is just a theoretical model. How would motion from one point to another even be possible? Even the experience of human consciousness and memory in the 'normal' direction is still movement from one point to another, which is not possible within static grid. Even if you call the fourth dimension time, if it doesn't move or flow, it's no different from a fourth spatial dimension. Yes, I'm still hung up on that.

[JonathanL]

I'm still thoroughly convinced that the human experience of time as one-directional, everchanging/everflowing and discrete pretty much disproves pure B-theory (but perhaps not some sort of hybrid between A and B-theory), and that anyone who believes that they've got a good explanation for the aforementioned experience of time do not understand how radically different models of time on B-theory are from our everyday experience.

[Carrikature]

I don't see how anything like human consciousness can be accounted for within the B-Theory. Seems to me it is just a theoretical model. How would motion from one point to another even be possible? Even the experience of human consciousness and memory in the 'normal' direction is still movement from one point to another, which is not possible within static grid. Even if you call the fourth dimension time, if it doesn't move or flow, it's no different from a fourth spatial dimension. Yes, I'm still hung up on that.

I'm not sure I understand what about human consciousness or motion actually differs between the two models. How is motion in A-theory possible?

[Carrikature]

I'm still thoroughly convinced that the human experience of time as one-directional, everchanging/everflowing and discrete pretty much disproves pure B-theory (but perhaps not some sort of hybrid between A and B-theory), and that anyone who believes that they've got a good explanation for the aforementioned experience of time do not understand how radically different models of time on B-theory are from our everyday experience.

I think it's premature to say B-theory is disproved. A-theory has its own mountain to climb: why is it the case that we experience a one-directional flow of time? As I understand it, there's no particular reason we don't observe time-symmetry. It might actually be the case that something particular about humans or life on earth is responsible for the apparent time-asymmetry while the universe as a whole is symmetric. A lot of people (myself included) are going to lean towards the science/math that suggest things really are symmetric despite our experience. Science and math have a pretty good track record in that regard.

[robrecht]

I'm not sure I understand what about human consciousness or motion actually differs between the two models. How is motion in A-theory possible?

My limited understanding of the B-theory of time is that it is static. Time does not flow from the past through the present into the future. Or rather we do not flow through time from our past selves into our future selves. Whereas, in the A-theory of time, our normal experience of time, change, and movement through time is simply considered to reflect reality more or less objectively. Is that not the case?

[JimL]

But why, if there is a distinct me existing in each instant of time, do we have knowledge of our past self, but not our future self?

Well the way i'm understanding it is that the brain states that comprise each of the distinct you's, that individually exist at each location in time, are each comprised of only those memories and experiences that exist in prior locations in time, locations where the entropy is even lower, aka the past, they do not comprise the data of those mental states that lie in subsequent locations in time, locations where the entropy is higher, aka the future. In other words, each existing mental state, at any particular location in time, is only comprised of the data from those mental states that are located in time where the entropy is lower and the entropy is lower only in those locations in time which we call the past. I guess another way to put it is that lower entropy states, mental or otherwise, are not comprised of information that exist in higher entropy states, even though both states co-exist in static time.

[seer]

Well the way i'm understanding it is that the brain states that comprise each of the distinct you's, that individually exist at each location in time, are each comprised of only those memories and experiences that exist in prior locations in time, locations where the entropy is even lower, aka the past, they do not comprise the data of those mental states that lie in subsequent locations in time, locations where the entropy is higher, aka the future. In other words, each existing mental state, at any particular location in time, is only comprised of the data from those mental states that are located in time where the entropy is lower and the entropy is lower only in those locations in time which we call the past. I guess another way to put it is that lower entropy states, mental or otherwise, are not comprised of information that exist in higher entropy states, even though both states co-exist in static time.

But why would that be the case that we only have knowledge of lower entropy experiences? Why would that make a difference? And really how much lower would the entropy be tomorrow from today? Yet we have no knowledge of tomorrow.

[JimL]

But why would that be the case that we only have knowledge of lower entropy experiences? Why would that make a difference? And really how much lower would the entropy be tomorrow from today? Yet we have no knowledge of tomorrow.

Because the direction in which entropy increases is the direction in which information increases, which is what we call the direction of times arrow. Obviously if a distinct you, a mental state, is located in time somewhere in the midst of that entropy/information increase, that mental state would only have access to the information located in time prior to its own location in time. If the information is located in time subsequent to your own location, aka the future, then your particular mental state, being located in time prior to that information, would have no access to it. In other words, information, like entropy, increases directionaly along the timeline, so a particular mental state located in time can't contain information that from its perpective in time, doesn't yet exist.

From the perspective of any particular mental state located in time the only information that exists, is information that is located in time prior, logically prior, to its own location in time. According to B-theory, the way I have come to understand it, all of time, and all the information in all of time exists. But the only information that you have access to, the only thing you can have knowledge of, is dependent upon where within that timeline you are located.