Determinism And Rationality.

[Stoic]

You are begging the question.

Not trying to prove anything, so not begging the question.

DNA does not equal consciousness, and consciousness does not equal survivability.

Are you arguing that human beings did not come about through the process of evolution, or that human beings are not self-aware creatures?

[shunyadragon]

What evidence do you have that the natural process did or can create self-aware creatures?

Thousands of peer reviewed literature over recent history concerning evolution. Self awareness is observed in other primates and higher mammals.

What evidence of natural processes can you cite that self aware organisms cannot result in self awareness?

[seer]

Thousands of peer reviewed literature over recent history concerning evolution. Self awareness is observed in other primates and higher mammals.

First, we have no idea if animal self awareness is anything like ours or what it really is. We can't live in their heads. Second, why self-awareness at all? Where and how did DNA become self aware?

What evidence of natural processes can you cite that self aware organisms cannot result in self awareness?

I don't have to show anything - if you are claiming that the natural process alone created self-awareness then it is on you to show how.

[seer]

Are you arguing that human beings did not come about through the process of evolution, or that human beings are not self-aware creatures?

Or I'm saying that there is no reason to assume that self-awareness can be explained by natural processes.

[Stoic]

Or I'm saying that there is no reason to assume that self-awareness can be explained by natural processes.

I don't see any reason to assume that self-awareness cannot be explained by natural processes.

Are you saying you think that human beings evolved, but self-awareness was "installed" at some point?

[seer]

I don't see any reason to assume that self-awareness cannot be explained by natural processes.

OK, then explain it. We know that it is not necessary for survival. To quote Sam Harris:

https://samharris.org/the-mystery-of-consciousness/

Are you saying you think that human beings evolved, but self-awareness was "installed" at some point?

I'm not convinced that evolution is completely unguided.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=seer;778426]First, we have no idea if animal self awareness is anything like ours or what it really is. We can't live in their heads. Second, why self-awareness at all? Where and how did DNA become self aware?

Yes we do, and the literature is vaste. You need to get an education and do your homework. Arguing from supposed igenrance does not get you anywhere. Many animals vividely dream and some can recognize themselves in a mirror.

I don't have to show anything - if you are claiming that the natural process alone created self-awareness then it is on you to show how.

Yes you do do, because you are making a negative claim and you cannot falsify it.

[seer]

Yes we do, and the literature is vaste. You need to get an education and do your homework. Arguing from supposed igenrance does not get you anywhere. Many animals vividely dream and some can recognize themselves in a mirror.

I actually have Shuny, passing a simple mirror test does not equal the degree of self awareness that we have.

Yes you do do, because you are making a negative claim and you cannot falsify it.

I will ask again: why self-awareness at all? Where and how did DNA become self aware? I will be waiting. And I will quote Harris again:

Most scientists are confident that consciousness emerges from unconscious complexity. We have compelling reasons for believing this, because the only signs of consciousness we see in the universe are found in evolved organisms like ourselves. Nevertheless, this notion of emergence strikes me as nothing more than a restatement of a miracle. To say that consciousness emerged at some point in the evolution of life even in principle.

https://samharris.org/the-mystery-of-consciousness/

[shunyadragon]

Or I'm saying that there is no reason to assume that self-awareness can be explained by natural processes.

I will add that not only dreaming, but higher animals show emotions like mourning, and some animals like birds show very complex problem solving skills, and sea mammals have languages, and different languages within species that other whales cannot understand.

[seer]

I will add that not only dreaming, but higher animals show emotions like mourning, and some animals like birds show very complex problem solving skills, and sea mammals have languages, and different languages within species that other whales cannot understand.

I will ask again: why self-awareness at all? Where and how did DNA become self aware? I will be waiting...

And BTW your religion teaches that man has a God given rational soul that animals do not have.

[shunyadragon]

I will ask again: why self-awareness at all? Where and how did DNA become self aware? I will be waiting...

DNA is not self aware. Self awareness has survival value in evolution. The question of why (?) is a philosophical qyestion. There is no question that other higher animals show attributes of self awareness.

You need not wait, simply do your homework.

And BTW your religion teaches that man has a God given rational soul that animals do not have.

Yes, but my religion does not teach that self awareness is exclusive to humans. It acknowledges that humans have the highest degree of self awareness.

Whether animals have souls is not an issue. There is no evidence that the soul is necessary self awareness is

[seer]

DNA is not self aware. Self awareness has survival value in evolution. The question of why (?) is a philosophical qyestion. There is no question that other higher animals show attributes of self awareness.

But we are DNA, and are self-aware. And almost all animals, including many primates, survive with out any self-awareness. So it is not necessary for survival. Again: why self-awareness at all? Where and how did DNA become self aware? I will be waiting...

You need not wait, simply do your homework.

Do you think you know more than Harris? He didn't do his homework?

Most scientists are confident that consciousness emerges from unconscious complexity. We have compelling reasons for believing this, because the only signs of consciousness we see in the universe are found in evolved organisms like ourselves. Nevertheless, this notion of emergence strikes me as nothing more than a restatement of a miracle. To say that consciousness emerged at some point in even in principle.

Yes, but my religion does not teach that self awareness is exclusive to humans. It acknowledges that humans have the highest degree of self awareness.

Whether animals have souls is not an issue. There is no evidence that the soul is necessary self awareness is

No your religion teaches that human have something that animals don't - a rational soul - our intellect.

https://www.bahai.org/library/author...ns/9#027354461

[Stoic]

OK, then explain it. We know that it is not necessary for survival.

That something has not been explained is not the same as that it cannot be explained. That said, I'm willing to accept that consciousness may never be completely explained, even though Dennett gave a pretty good shot at it in his book, Consciousness Explained.

And consciousness may not be necessary for survival, but that doesn't mean it can't provide some reproductive advantage, or that it may not be the side-effect of something that provides some reproductive advantage.

I'm not convinced that evolution is completely unguided.

Okay.

[seer]

That something has not been explained is not the same as that it cannot be explained. That said, I'm willing to accept that consciousness may never be completely explained, even though Dennett gave a pretty good shot at it in his book, Consciousness Explained.

Didn't he pretty much deny first person experience?

And consciousness may not be necessary for survival, but that doesn't mean it can't provide some reproductive advantage, or that it may not be the side-effect of something that provides some reproductive advantage.

True, not every attribute we have necessarily has survival value. But consciousness is very strange. As Harris said: in principle.

"In principle" is a pretty stark suggestion.

[Stoic]

Didn't he pretty much deny first person experience?

It's been a while since I read it, and even if it was fresh in my mind, it would probably be a mistake for me to try to boil it down to a few words.

True, not every attribute we have necessarily has survival value.

There is a big difference between "necessary to survive" and "having survival value".

But consciousness is very strange. As Harris said: in principle.

"In principle" is a pretty stark suggestion.

I haven't read much of Harris, and he is certainly welcome to his opinion.