And worldviews. OK I was recently watching feminists on C-Span, and they were adamant that the progressive movement must dismantle or destroy white patriarchy and patriarchy in general, yet... Yet it was largely this patriarchal system that created the universities that they presently haunt, the modern medicine that helps keeps them alive, the farming and infrastructure that puts food on their table, every other modern convenience that they enjoy and created the very system of government that they see to exploit. Never mind the fact that it was largely the white patriarchal system that gave women the vote. What was really interesting was the claim that patriarchal system was a contrivance, a mere social invention. But that does not make sense, male dominance has been inherent in human history, and in our closest primate cousins. It is more biological than mere contrivance.
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Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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White Patriarchy...
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White Patriarchy...
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3sTags: None
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYou mean by favoring the man over the woman in the race?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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That it was white seems entirely like an accident of history. The modern civilisation that we're enjoying could have happened in other places, but once the ball got rolling in one area they quickly grew faster than the others.
Patriarchy is another issue. I tend towards a highly egalitarian complementarianism. I don't think there's any significant differences in abilities when it comes to the mind between men and women. So again, that its a purely social construction is quite possible.
The question then is whether patriarchal societies are bad or good.
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd worldviews. OK I was recently watching feminists on C-Span, and they were adamant that the progressive movement must dismantle or destroy white patriarchy and patriarchy in general, yet... Yet it was largely this patriarchal system that created the universities that they presently haunt, the modern medicine that helps keeps them alive, the farming and infrastructure that puts food on their table, every other modern convenience that they enjoy and created the very system of government that they see to exploit.
Never mind the fact that it was largely the white patriarchal system that gave women the vote.
And the police beat them up, locked them up and tortured them, and sometimes even gang raped them, trying to stop these women. And they persisted.
And now women have the right to vote.
But that does not make sense, male dominance has been inherent in human history, and in our closest primate cousins. It is more biological than mere contrivance.Last edited by Leonhard; 10-15-2018, 03:30 PM. Reason: got a badass permission from badass Cow Poke to say badass
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostEven my liberal friends are having a hard time grasping all this. One of my classic liberal friends who works at the homeless shelter in town told me Saturday morning at breakfast, "I think I'm about ready to turn in my pinko commie liberal credentials".
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI've yet to see any feminist deny that the modern day civilisation grew up under patriarchy.
I think you should really read about the suffragetes who fought to get women the right to vote. Those women were really badass. And yes, they had convince men to vote to give them the right to vote. I'm not quite sure what other option was left for them?
And the police beat them up, locked them up and tortured them, and sometimes even gang raped them, trying to stop these women. And they persisted.
And now women have the right to vote.
So has homosexuality. That doesn't mean its good, or reflects the ideal state of being for humans.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd worldviews. OK I was recently watching feminists on C-Span, and they were adamant that the progressive movement must dismantle or destroy white patriarchy and patriarchy in general, yet... Yet it was largely this patriarchal system that created the universities that they presently haunt, the modern medicine that helps keeps them alive, the farming and infrastructure that puts food on their table, every other modern convenience that they enjoy and created the very system of government that they see to exploit. Never mind the fact that it was largely the white patriarchal system that gave women the vote. What was really interesting was the claim that patriarchal system was a contrivance, a mere social invention. But that does not make sense, male dominance has been inherent in human history, and in our closest primate cousins. It is more biological than mere contrivance.
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes the very system that gives them the things they enjoy today.
So that argument is a bit wonky. Just because something has been historically true, doesn't mean it can't be criticised.
It took forty one years to pass the Nineteenth Amendment after it was first introduced. It was not a foregone conclusion that it would. They can thank white men, or men in general.
It was the suffragetes who fought to convince men to hand them what they deserved, and to make them proper citizens. In the US that happened through a constitutional ammendment.
Your argument is really bad here seer. Yes it had to happen through a democratic process. But you might as well claim that the blacks in the US should thank white men for their right to vote too. As if they shouldn't have had it to begin with.
Not the point, male dominance is a genetic trait (whether good or bad) not a mere contrivance.
I am a complementarianist, but I also have strong doubts that the way men have treated women through the millenia reflects God's designs. And I think even with ordained roles, we are, and should be considered almost the same in terms of intellectual capabilities.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostIts not white patriarchy which gives them the things they enjoy today. Its industry, hard work, ingenuity, etc... none of which is essentially patriarchal. Women entered the work force in droves during WWII, and they never left it. They were just as capable as men to be in that work force and help provide the things of society.
So that argument is a bit wonky. Just because something has been historically true, doesn't mean it can't be criticized.
They can, and should thank the suffragetes. You should too, unless of course you don't want women to have the right to vote. To say that men just on their own, suddenly and spontaniously in an act of charity decided to give the women the right to vote, is ridiculous.
It was the suffragettes who fought to convince men to hand them what they deserved, and to make them proper citizens. In the US that happened through a constitutional ammendment.
Your argument is really bad here seer. Yes it had to happen through a democratic process. But you might as well claim that the blacks in the US should thank white men for their right to vote too. As if they shouldn't have had it to begin with.
In the simplest form you're stating it here I disagree with it.
I am a complementarianist, but I also have strong doubts that the way men have treated women through the millenia reflects God's designs. And I think even with ordained roles, we are, and should be considered almost the same in terms of intellectual capabilities.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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The reason societies developed as patriarchies is because the women had the children and the men protected them and provided for them in order to perpetuate their families. The world was a pretty dangerous place at one time.
These same feminists who claim to be the physical equal to men and want to take over socieity are the same ones who are boo-hooing about how men dominate and rape women and women can't go out by themselves at night because all men are rapists and are commiserating with Ford about how she was abused.
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Originally posted by seer View PostCriticized for what?
It is not a bad argument Leonhard, it is a fact. It was voting men that gave women the vote, no matter what role the suffragettes played, they could not vote.
As far as whether it was good or not - the argument could be made that without the woman's vote we would not have the leftist politicians and judges that lead to abortion on demand, or gay marriage, convenient divorce. Or radical feminists polluting the moral atmosphere. You tell me Leonhard - is that good?
Why? Don't we find male dominance in our closest primate cousins? How is it not genetic?
It doesn't apply to humans. And there are plenty of egalitarian social structures out there. We have a patriarchal structure, mostly because it was what we inherited. Not because it is innate to our biology. At least not entirely.
They why did God not allow women in leadership roles in both Testaments? I can think of only one exception.
Few priests are the smartest people.
It is a mystery why God chose only men to be priests. The Virgin Mary would be the one most worthy if it came to a matter of virtue or ability, if you as me, as I'm a Catholic. Its a mystery why God chose a married unlearned fisherman by the name of Simon and made him the Rock (Peter) of the Church.
If you'd ask me why, and told me to take a guess, I'd wager it is because Christ was a man. And therefore since all priests represent the persona of Christ during a mass, this is most fitting. Beyond that I have no answers for you. Testosterone also gives men a moderate physical advantage.
I am a very egalitarian complementarianist. I believe God gave us duties, but I think we have very similar capabilities in everything except our reproductive functions.Last edited by Leonhard; 10-16-2018, 11:07 AM.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostUnless you can make a convincing case that women would have been given the right to vote, without the advocacy of the suffragettes. You might as well then argue that Martin Luther King had nothing to do with black people being given the vote.
None of those things are good. And yet women ought still be able to vote.
The argument isn't all that strong, because humans live in monogamous relationships. We, mostly, pick one mate and stay with that mate. There's also, like other animals with monogamous relationships, not that much of a difference between a male and a female. Gorilla's are the opposite, here there's one alpha male who has almost exclusive right to reproduce with the females. Here the males compete directly with each other, and therefore sexual selection starts to occur. In some such species there can be as many as three different types of males, each using different techniques to get the females.
It doesn't apply to humans. And there are plenty of egalitarian social structures out there. We have a patriarchal structure, mostly because it was what we inherited. Not because it is innate to our biology. At least not entirely.
Because that is His Will. Women are just as intelligent as men. There are many women smarter and more learned than many of the priests I've seen. Even people who are trying to make the argument that women don't reach the same intellectual heights as men, are mostly saying that there's less diversity between women, and so a smaller percentage of women is found at the very tips of human ability. That's a bit of a stretch to apply to the priesthood.
Few priests are the smartest people.
It is a mystery why God chose only men to be priests. The Virgin Mary would be the one most worthy if it came to a matter of virtue or ability, if you as me, as I'm a Catholic. Its a mystery why God chose a married unlearned fisherman by the name of Simon and made him the Rock (Peter) of the Church.
If you'd ask me why, and told me to take a guess, I'd wager it is because Christ was a man. And therefore since all priests represent the persona of Christ during a mass, this is most fitting. Beyond that I have no answers for you. Testosterone also gives men a moderate physical advantage.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostEven my liberal friends are having a hard time grasping all this. One of my classic liberal friends who works at the homeless shelter in town told me Saturday morning at breakfast, "I think I'm about ready to turn in my pinko commie liberal credentials".
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