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Cogito ergo sum

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  • White Patriarchy...

    And worldviews. OK I was recently watching feminists on C-Span, and they were adamant that the progressive movement must dismantle or destroy white patriarchy and patriarchy in general, yet... Yet it was largely this patriarchal system that created the universities that they presently haunt, the modern medicine that helps keeps them alive, the farming and infrastructure that puts food on their table, every other modern convenience that they enjoy and created the very system of government that they see to exploit. Never mind the fact that it was largely the white patriarchal system that gave women the vote. What was really interesting was the claim that patriarchal system was a contrivance, a mere social invention. But that does not make sense, male dominance has been inherent in human history, and in our closest primate cousins. It is more biological than mere contrivance.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    It gets worse...

    More Privileged White Women Should Take a Stand Like Taylor Swift
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      You mean by favoring the man over the woman in the race?

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        You mean by favoring the man over the woman in the race?
        Even my liberal friends are having a hard time grasping all this. One of my classic liberal friends who works at the homeless shelter in town told me Saturday morning at breakfast, "I think I'm about ready to turn in my pinko commie liberal credentials".
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • #5
          That it was white seems entirely like an accident of history. The modern civilisation that we're enjoying could have happened in other places, but once the ball got rolling in one area they quickly grew faster than the others.

          Patriarchy is another issue. I tend towards a highly egalitarian complementarianism. I don't think there's any significant differences in abilities when it comes to the mind between men and women. So again, that its a purely social construction is quite possible.

          The question then is whether patriarchal societies are bad or good.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            And worldviews. OK I was recently watching feminists on C-Span, and they were adamant that the progressive movement must dismantle or destroy white patriarchy and patriarchy in general, yet... Yet it was largely this patriarchal system that created the universities that they presently haunt, the modern medicine that helps keeps them alive, the farming and infrastructure that puts food on their table, every other modern convenience that they enjoy and created the very system of government that they see to exploit.
            I've yet to see any feminist deny that the modern day civilisation grew up under patriarchy.

            Never mind the fact that it was largely the white patriarchal system that gave women the vote.
            I think you should really read about the suffragetes who fought to get women the right to vote. Those women were really badass. And yes, they had convince men to vote to give them the right to vote. I'm not quite sure what other option was left for them?

            And the police beat them up, locked them up and tortured them, and sometimes even gang raped them, trying to stop these women. And they persisted.

            And now women have the right to vote.

            But that does not make sense, male dominance has been inherent in human history, and in our closest primate cousins. It is more biological than mere contrivance.
            So has homosexuality. That doesn't mean its good, or reflects the ideal state of being for humans.
            Last edited by Leonhard; 10-15-2018, 04:30 PM. Reason: got a badass permission from badass Cow Poke to say badass

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Even my liberal friends are having a hard time grasping all this. One of my classic liberal friends who works at the homeless shelter in town told me Saturday morning at breakfast, "I think I'm about ready to turn in my pinko commie liberal credentials".
              It also looks like the things that Marsha Blackburn has voted for/against that has caused Swift's ire, Phil Bredesen (who Swift supports) is also for/against. For instance, Swift has made a lot of noise about Blackburn not being pro-gay marriage but Bredesen voted to ban gay marriage when he was Governor.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                I've yet to see any feminist deny that the modern day civilisation grew up under patriarchy.
                Yes the very system that gives them the things they enjoy today.

                I think you should really read about the suffragetes who fought to get women the right to vote. Those women were really badass. And yes, they had convince men to vote to give them the right to vote. I'm not quite sure what other option was left for them?

                And the police beat them up, locked them up and tortured them, and sometimes even gang raped them, trying to stop these women. And they persisted.

                And now women have the right to vote.
                It took forty one years to pass the Nineteenth Amendment after it was first introduced. It was not a foregone conclusion that it would. They can thank white men, or men in general.


                So has homosexuality. That doesn't mean its good, or reflects the ideal state of being for humans.
                Not the point, male dominance is a genetic trait (whether good or bad) not a mere contrivance.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  And worldviews. OK I was recently watching feminists on C-Span, and they were adamant that the progressive movement must dismantle or destroy white patriarchy and patriarchy in general, yet... Yet it was largely this patriarchal system that created the universities that they presently haunt, the modern medicine that helps keeps them alive, the farming and infrastructure that puts food on their table, every other modern convenience that they enjoy and created the very system of government that they see to exploit. Never mind the fact that it was largely the white patriarchal system that gave women the vote. What was really interesting was the claim that patriarchal system was a contrivance, a mere social invention. But that does not make sense, male dominance has been inherent in human history, and in our closest primate cousins. It is more biological than mere contrivance.
                  Firstly, it needn't be white. The Chinese built a mighty, innovative civilisation, whilst European Celts were still painting themselves blue and pillaging neighbouring tribes. And the Persian Empire also developed a great civilisation from the 6th century BCE. And, whilst traditionally, society has been patriarchal, the women's movement, suffragettes etc, effectively put an end to that...sometimes, historically at great cost to themselves. So yes, it was once a purely patriarchal society, it is no longer. And this is a good thing, isn't it?
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Yes the very system that gives them the things they enjoy today.
                    Its not white patriarchy which gives them the things they enjoy today. Its industry, hard work, ingenuity, etc... none of which is essentially patriarchal. Women entered the work force in droves during WWII, and they never left it. They were just as capable as men to be in that work force and help provide the things of society.

                    So that argument is a bit wonky. Just because something has been historically true, doesn't mean it can't be criticised.

                    It took forty one years to pass the Nineteenth Amendment after it was first introduced. It was not a foregone conclusion that it would. They can thank white men, or men in general.
                    They can, and should thank the suffragetes. You should too, unless of course you don't want women to have the right to vote. To say that men just on their own, suddenly and spontaniously in an act of charity decided to give the women the right to vote, is ridiculous.

                    It was the suffragetes who fought to convince men to hand them what they deserved, and to make them proper citizens. In the US that happened through a constitutional ammendment.

                    Your argument is really bad here seer. Yes it had to happen through a democratic process. But you might as well claim that the blacks in the US should thank white men for their right to vote too. As if they shouldn't have had it to begin with.

                    Not the point, male dominance is a genetic trait (whether good or bad) not a mere contrivance.
                    In the simplest form you're stating it here I disagree with it.

                    I am a complementarianist, but I also have strong doubts that the way men have treated women through the millenia reflects God's designs. And I think even with ordained roles, we are, and should be considered almost the same in terms of intellectual capabilities.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      Its not white patriarchy which gives them the things they enjoy today. Its industry, hard work, ingenuity, etc... none of which is essentially patriarchal. Women entered the work force in droves during WWII, and they never left it. They were just as capable as men to be in that work force and help provide the things of society.
                      Well actually they did leave when the men came home, and the ones who stayed drove down wages since there was more competition for jobs.

                      So that argument is a bit wonky. Just because something has been historically true, doesn't mean it can't be criticized.
                      Criticized for what?

                      They can, and should thank the suffragetes. You should too, unless of course you don't want women to have the right to vote. To say that men just on their own, suddenly and spontaniously in an act of charity decided to give the women the right to vote, is ridiculous.

                      It was the suffragettes who fought to convince men to hand them what they deserved, and to make them proper citizens. In the US that happened through a constitutional ammendment.

                      Your argument is really bad here seer. Yes it had to happen through a democratic process. But you might as well claim that the blacks in the US should thank white men for their right to vote too. As if they shouldn't have had it to begin with.
                      It is not a bad argument Leonhard, it is a fact. It was voting men that gave women the vote, no matter what role the suffragettes played, they could not vote. As far as whether it was good or not - the argument could be made that without the woman's vote we would not have the leftist politicians and judges that lead to abortion on demand, or gay marriage, convenient divorce. Or radical feminists polluting the moral atmosphere. You tell me Leonhard - is that good?



                      In the simplest form you're stating it here I disagree with it.
                      Why? Don't we find male dominance in our closest primate cousins? How is it not genetic?

                      I am a complementarianist, but I also have strong doubts that the way men have treated women through the millenia reflects God's designs. And I think even with ordained roles, we are, and should be considered almost the same in terms of intellectual capabilities.
                      They why did God not allow women in leadership roles in both Testaments? I can think of only one exception.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The reason societies developed as patriarchies is because the women had the children and the men protected them and provided for them in order to perpetuate their families. The world was a pretty dangerous place at one time.

                        These same feminists who claim to be the physical equal to men and want to take over socieity are the same ones who are boo-hooing about how men dominate and rape women and women can't go out by themselves at night because all men are rapists and are commiserating with Ford about how she was abused.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Criticized for what?
                          That can be dealt with in another thread. Right now I'm just focusing on the argument you did make.

                          It is not a bad argument Leonhard, it is a fact. It was voting men that gave women the vote, no matter what role the suffragettes played, they could not vote.
                          Unless you can make a convincing case that women would have been given the right to vote, without the advocacy of the suffragettes. You might as well then argue that Martin Luther King had nothing to do with black people being given the vote.

                          As far as whether it was good or not - the argument could be made that without the woman's vote we would not have the leftist politicians and judges that lead to abortion on demand, or gay marriage, convenient divorce. Or radical feminists polluting the moral atmosphere. You tell me Leonhard - is that good?
                          None of those things are good. And yet women ought still be able to vote.

                          Why? Don't we find male dominance in our closest primate cousins? How is it not genetic?
                          The argument isn't all that strong, because humans live in monogamous relationships. We, mostly, pick one mate and stay with that mate. There's also, like other animals with monogamous relationships, not that much of a difference between a male and a female. Gorilla's are the opposite, here there's one alpha male who has almost exclusive right to reproduce with the females. Here the males compete directly with each other, and therefore sexual selection starts to occur. In some such species there can be as many as three different types of males, each using different techniques to get the females.

                          It doesn't apply to humans. And there are plenty of egalitarian social structures out there. We have a patriarchal structure, mostly because it was what we inherited. Not because it is innate to our biology. At least not entirely.

                          They why did God not allow women in leadership roles in both Testaments? I can think of only one exception.
                          Because that is His Will. Women are just as intelligent as men. There are many women smarter and more learned than many of the priests I've seen. Even people who are trying to make the argument that women don't reach the same intellectual heights as men, are mostly saying that there's less diversity between women, and so a smaller percentage of women is found at the very tips of human ability. That's a bit of a stretch to apply to the priesthood.

                          Few priests are the smartest people.

                          It is a mystery why God chose only men to be priests. The Virgin Mary would be the one most worthy if it came to a matter of virtue or ability, if you as me, as I'm a Catholic. Its a mystery why God chose a married unlearned fisherman by the name of Simon and made him the Rock (Peter) of the Church.

                          If you'd ask me why, and told me to take a guess, I'd wager it is because Christ was a man. And therefore since all priests represent the persona of Christ during a mass, this is most fitting. Beyond that I have no answers for you. Testosterone also gives men a moderate physical advantage.

                          I am a very egalitarian complementarianist. I believe God gave us duties, but I think we have very similar capabilities in everything except our reproductive functions.
                          Last edited by Leonhard; 10-16-2018, 12:07 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            Unless you can make a convincing case that women would have been given the right to vote, without the advocacy of the suffragettes. You might as well then argue that Martin Luther King had nothing to do with black people being given the vote.
                            Black people were voting long before MLK. But the fact is, no matter what suffragettes did it was men who gave women the vote. Period.


                            None of those things are good. And yet women ought still be able to vote.
                            Even if it directly lead to evils like abortion? Why?



                            The argument isn't all that strong, because humans live in monogamous relationships. We, mostly, pick one mate and stay with that mate. There's also, like other animals with monogamous relationships, not that much of a difference between a male and a female. Gorilla's are the opposite, here there's one alpha male who has almost exclusive right to reproduce with the females. Here the males compete directly with each other, and therefore sexual selection starts to occur. In some such species there can be as many as three different types of males, each using different techniques to get the females.

                            It doesn't apply to humans. And there are plenty of egalitarian social structures out there. We have a patriarchal structure, mostly because it was what we inherited. Not because it is innate to our biology. At least not entirely.
                            OK, so you agree that it is at least partly genetic. So it is not merely a social construct, an invention. And what do monogamous relationships have to do with male dominance? And where were these historic egalitarian social structures you are speaking of. I can only think of a couple.



                            Because that is His Will. Women are just as intelligent as men. There are many women smarter and more learned than many of the priests I've seen. Even people who are trying to make the argument that women don't reach the same intellectual heights as men, are mostly saying that there's less diversity between women, and so a smaller percentage of women is found at the very tips of human ability. That's a bit of a stretch to apply to the priesthood.

                            Few priests are the smartest people.

                            It is a mystery why God chose only men to be priests. The Virgin Mary would be the one most worthy if it came to a matter of virtue or ability, if you as me, as I'm a Catholic. Its a mystery why God chose a married unlearned fisherman by the name of Simon and made him the Rock (Peter) of the Church.

                            If you'd ask me why, and told me to take a guess, I'd wager it is because Christ was a man. And therefore since all priests represent the persona of Christ during a mass, this is most fitting. Beyond that I have no answers for you. Testosterone also gives men a moderate physical advantage.
                            Or perhaps it has to do with emotional make up? Just look at the churches that began ordaining women 50-60 years ago, they all ended up denying Scripture (to degrees), supporting abortion, gay marriage, no fault divorce, etc... And if God did not allow women in leadership positions why is it a good idea for us to do it?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Even my liberal friends are having a hard time grasping all this. One of my classic liberal friends who works at the homeless shelter in town told me Saturday morning at breakfast, "I think I'm about ready to turn in my pinko commie liberal credentials".
                              Civilisation is at a stage now where it is moving away from fighting and towards cooperation on global scales. It must do this if it is to survive. This job is better done by women. Please pray for Rachel.
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

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