Originally posted by JimL
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheism And Moral Progress
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Tass, the moral claim that our survival is a moral good only relies on our SAY SO. The fact that we have an instinct to survive has nothing to do with whether our survival is a moral good or not.Originally posted by seer View PostYes, like in your country...
And we are back to SAY SO...Last edited by Tassman; 08-26-2018, 12:51 AM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostOf course Jim, all claims of good or evil, at bottom, hinge on someone's say so. There is NOTHING else.
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Originally posted by seer View PostOf course Jim, all claims of good or evil, at bottom, hinge on someone's say so. There is NOTHING else.
In one of these threads I saw you comment that distance objectively exists. So I take it you at least accept that we can study the world around us and come to a scientific understanding of what distance is, measure distance, etc? So you accept the possibility of us learning objective scientific truths about the world, yes? So while a caveman might be able to give only a very poor account of distance, and Einstein might be able to explain it in great detail, and while Americans might measure things in miles and the rest of the world in kilometers... distance nonetheless is an objective reality.
In the same way there are many objective truths about humanity, evolution, human nature, human societies, human actions, human intentions etc. There are all sorts of facts that can be learned and studied by science. There different ways that humans can interact with each other can be analyzed. The outcomes of those actions can be measured in all sorts of different ways.
To my mind morality is much like distance but is a measure of human actions and intentions. Different people have a different level of grasp of it, just as the caveman and Einstein have a different level of grasp of what distance is. And by studying the science of it we can progress in our understanding of it. Your statement that "there is NOTHING else" in your denial of the reality of this, rings about as hollow to me as if you were saying distance didn't really exist and there was nothing else other than opinions about it. It seems like a pretty absurd and foolish claim on your part."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWhat a bizarre claim. (You really are a nihilist extremist aren't you? Everything you accuse others of...)
In the same way there are many objective truths about humanity, evolution, human nature, human societies, human actions, human intentions etc. There are all sorts of facts that can be learned and studied by science. There different ways that humans can interact with each other can be analyzed. The outcomes of those actions can be measured in all sorts of different ways.
To my mind morality is much like distance but is a measure of human actions and intentions. Different people have a different level of grasp of it, just as the caveman and Einstein have a different level of grasp of what distance is. And by studying the science of it we can progress in our understanding of it. Your statement that "there is NOTHING else" in your denial of the reality of this, rings about as hollow to me as if you were saying distance didn't really exist and there was nothing else other than opinions about it. It seems like a pretty absurd and foolish claim on your part.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow can I be a nihilist if I believe in universal moral truths, and the reality of everlasting life.
Nonsense Star, like I said recently the problem has never been inventing decent moral theories, based on science or philosophy. The problem is in following them, if we followed the golden rule from the heart and really did love our fellow man we would have heaven on earth. We don't need science to tell us that, we have collectively know that for centuries. And I'm sorry Star, you have no objective basis for moral truths. I can objectively measure distance, or objectively demonstrate that 2+2=4 - how do you objectively demonstrate that murder is wrong. You could speak of all the negative consequences of murder, though in certain cases it may be a positive for the murderer, but applying a moral label is and will always be a subjective call.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Nonsense Star, like I said recently the problem has never been inventing decent moral theories, based on science or philosophy. The problem is in following them, if we followed the golden rule from the heart and really did love our fellow man we would have heaven on earth.We don't need science to tell us that, we have collectively know that for centuries. And I'm sorry Star, you have no objective basis for moral truths.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSeer, you are still arguing against yourself. If as you say " if we followed the golden rule we would have heaven on earth," then you are making my argument for me. What you are arguing is that moral rules are rules dictating those behaviors that are in the best interests of human society. Now that you understand and admit this I'm sure that you will reverse course and try to deny it once again. Go ahead, can't wait to read it.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo I am not Jim, I never said that certain behaviors would not lead to specific consequences. But calling that a moral good is completely subjective. Others may believe that the other golden rule is a moral good: "he with the most gold rules." Saying that what is generally in the best interests society is a moral good, is again subjective. An opinion, a SAY SO. Try to keep up James.Last edited by JimL; 08-27-2018, 09:31 AM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWrong seer, you're still confusing the issue due to your agenda. If as you agree that certain behaviors will lead to certain consequences then those consequences are either a benefit to, or adverse to, the best interests of the social order. When you speak of the other moral good, i.e. "he with the most gold rules," you are not speaking about the interests of society, you are speaking about the interests of one individual. As I have previously made clear, morality is not about the individual alone, how could it be, it's about the good of all individuals and of the society to which they belong. It's not simply about someones say so, it's about what truly is in the best interests of the good of the group, it's about what actually works, and a divine say so isn't needed for that.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo our deaths would be bad for us, but a good for the Alien race that harvest us for food.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYes. Because "good" is measured relative to an individual, what is a "good" for one may well be a "bad" for another. Smoking cigarettes is a good for the tobacco industry, and a bad for me. I'm surprised that I have to explain this. It seems fairly obvious to me.
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Originally posted by seer View PostJim, you are really being dense here. Saying that the best interests of society is a moral good IS A SUBJECTIVE CLAIM, based on opinion or say so.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYes. Because "good" is measured relative to an individual, what is a "good" for one may well be a "bad" for another. Smoking cigarettes is a good for the tobacco industry, and a bad for me. I'm surprised that I have to explain this. It seems fairly obvious to me.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYou are apparently going to keep on contradicting yourself. You said that if people followed the golden rule we would have heaven on earth. Now you know I'm not religious, but that is my argument seer, that is the point of morality, what is "good" is not just say so it is the empirical results of enforced moral law. And if the morals have the effect you say they do, then they need have nothing to do with being objectively divine. The moral against murder, theft, rape, et etc. is good simply because it proves to be beneficial to human society, or as you yourself put it, to have heaven on earth.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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