Atheism And Moral Progress

[Tassman]

Correct taking out a wicked people or nation is a moral good, like when we took out the Nazis. And God never ordered rape - stop lying Tass...

That is just stupid, God came first.

I'm glad you agree that the survival of our species is not a moral good.

You said:Social mores derive from self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection. They are beneficial to the breeding and survival of our species as social animals.

So how does killing our offspring by the millions further our procreation and survival. If procreation and survival is why we have morals in the first place?

Our species does not "kill our offspring by the millions" and there is no sign of our species is dying out due to lack of population growth...quite the reverse.

[Tassman]

What? Jim that is just begging the question. You can't answer the question Jim because it all, at bottom, comes down to someone's say so. I have use this example in the past - an advanced alien race comes to earth to harvest us for food. They see that as a moral good (feeding themselves, like we kill and eat cows) - on what basis can you argue against that?

There is no argument against that any more than there was for the native inhabitants of the colonial territories during the murderous invasions by the technically superior colonial powers. But it is the best interests of OUR survival that we try to stop them as it was for them to try and stop us...even though they failed.

It would only be your, or our say so, that disagrees. But our say so is no more correct or valid than their's.

Nor is your say sosay so

[seer]

Because we are not talking about alien races, and morals have nothing to do with alien races, morals have to do with us as human beings living together in community. I've answered the question, in a logical way from my perspective, and you have not answered it logically from your perspective and the reason that you haven't is because you can't. Defining "good" simply as that which comes from god, or that which aligns with god doesn't define what it is you mean by "good." Can you explain what you mean by "good"? When you say that god is "good", what do you mean by the term "good?"

Jim are you really this slow? Or stubborn? You have not, in the least, defined "good" - what do you mean by "good." And you can't just use your "say so." See Jim, you are exactly in the same boat, and you hypocritically refuse to see it. In the end it comes down to someone's say so- yours, a culture's or God's. Someone defines good, there is nothing else. You say what helps the human community is good, but why is that good? How is that anymore than your say so?

[seer]

Nor is your say sosay so

One day Tass we will all find out if it is only my say so or God's...

[Sparko]

What matters is that the morals actually be in the best interests of human community, not that the benevolent King knows them to be in the best interests..

In your scenario there is no way to decide if something is actually in the best interests of human community. Because you said that even if everyone in the world thought it was good to steal it would still be wrong. So if everyone in the world said that stealing is in the best interests of human society, they would be wrong. Yet how can you decide they would be wrong unless you have access to some higher definition of what is in the best interests of society than everyone else? You seem to be the "God" in your scenario that decides what is in the best interests of human community, even if everyone else in the world disagreed.

[JimL]

Jim are you really this slow? Or stubborn? You have not, in the least, defined "good" - what do you mean by "good." And you can't just use your "say so." See Jim, you are exactly in the same boat, and you hypocritically refuse to see it. In the end it comes down to someone's say so- yours, a culture's or God's. Someone defines good, there is nothing else. You say what helps the human community is good, but why is that good? How is that anymore than your say so?

You're confused seer. It is we who say so, it is we who decide, make, and enforce morality. We don't need divine revelation in order to find out what social morals are in the best interests of ourselves and the human community as a whole, but it isn't because of our say so that those moral behaviors are in our best interests as a human society. Would you say that the moral against murder, rape, theft is in the best interests of society? Of course you would, it's prima facie, common sense, empirically understood, that such morals are in the best interests of society, so though we understand and agree with that, that doesn't mean that it is our say so is the reason that it is so.

[seer]

You're confused seer. It is we who say so, it is we who decide, make, and enforce morality. We don't need divine revelation in order to find out what social morals are in the best interests of ourselves and the human community as a whole, but it isn't because of our say so that those moral behaviors are in our best interests as a human society. Would you say that the moral against murder, rape, theft is in the best interests of society? Of course you would, it's prima facie, common sense, empirically understood, that such morals are in the best interests of society, so though we understand and agree with that, that doesn't mean that it is our say so is the reason that it is so.

Jim, you are missing the point. Again, why is the best interests of society a GOOD?

[JimL]

Jim, you are missing the point. Again, why is the best interests of society a GOOD?

Because you and I and everybody else who lives is a member of the human community and therefore those moral behaviors, laws, which are in our best interests as a community = good. It's really not the rocket science you're making it out to be seer. Now, why are the morals come down from god a good? To say they are good simply because of their source says absolutely nothing about what it is that you mean by "good."

[seer]

Because you and I and everybody else who lives is a member of the human community and therefore those moral behaviors, laws, which are in our best interests as a community = good. It's really not the rocket science you're making it out to be seer. Now, why are the morals come down from god a good? To say they are good simply because of their source says absolutely nothing about what it is that you mean by "good."

Jim, we are back to our collective SAY SO.

[JimL]

Jim, we are back to our collective SAY SO.

Well then seer, you can just define what it is that you mean by good. Can you give me a logical explanation other than that good is whatever god says it is? Because if that is what you think then "good" has no definite meaning and when you define god as good it doesn't tell us anything at all about god. So, what do you say? What do you mean when you say God is "good?"

[seer]

Well then seer, you can just define what it is that you mean by good. Can you give me a logical explanation other than that good is whatever god says it is? Because if that is what you think then "good" has no definite meaning and when you define god as good it doesn't tell us anything at all about god. So, what do you say? What do you mean when you say God is "good?"

Jim, you are a hypocrite because what applies to God applies to you or any other moral claim. Yes what God deems as good is good, just as what you deem as good, our best interests, is only based on say so. And God by His very nature is loving, just, forgiving, Holy, etc... These attributes define His goodness. So can you give me a logical exploitation why our best interest is "good" apart from SAY SO?

[Sparko]

Jim, you are a hypocrite because what applies to God applies to you or any other moral claim. Yes what God deems as good is good, just as what you deem as good, our best interests, is only based on say so. And God by His very nature is loving, just, forgiving, Holy, etc... These attributes define His goodness. So can you give me a logical exploitation why our best interest is "good" apart from SAY SO?

He keeps saying Prima Facie - on the face of it. Meaning "we just know" what good is innately.

He is arguing that it is built into our nature to know what good is. In other words "a conscience" - one that it doesn't matter if everyone in the world didn't agree on what is "good" it would still be "good" nonetheless.

Sounds exactly like Romans 2 doesn't it?

Yet again, JimL makes our argument for us and doesn't even realize it.

[lee_merrill]

Though the Nazis thought the primary good was what was in the best interests of the Aryan race, and how can you contradict them?

How'd that work out for them, and for the millions of human beings that died because of their thought?

Well, by that logic, if the Allies had lost the war, then they would have been in the wrong. But you didn't answer my question, how can you condemn the Nazis? Especially if they had conquered the world, and society was then for the Aryans.

... you can't just define god as good, unless you can also define what you mean by good.

"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Ro 13:10) So to be good is to be loving. And "God is love" (1 John 4:8).

Blessings,
Lee

[Tassman]

One day Tass we will all find out if it is only my say so or God's...

No we won't, we'll be dead.

[Tassman]

Jim, you are missing the point. Again, why is the best interests of society a GOOD?