Originally posted by seer
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostFalse, misrepresentation of Vilenkin.
matter, space and time. That is as close to nothing as you can get, but what is still required here is the laws of physics. So the laws of physics should still be there, and they are definitely not nothing.
http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginningAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostHere are his own wrds again:
The only thing that is required are the laws of physics. Preexisting space is not even required. So if you think there was preexisting energy (quantum or otherwise) where exactly would that exist if there is no space? I understand Shuny that this goes against your religious agenda since your faith teaches that matter/energy are co-eternal with God.Last edited by JimL; 10-22-2017, 02:12 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe laws of physics are nothing, if there is nothing else existing. Something has to exist and to act in accordance to the physical laws, otherwise the existence of the laws would be meaningless. The description as stated by Vilinken of his theory is irrelevant to common sense. Think about it!Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostTass, you have been deeply dishonest in this thread twice, and in both cases I have proved you wrong. And now you are doing it again, Vilenkin's nothing only includes the laws of physics (which are not material things) there is no SPACE or TIME in his nothing so there is no place where some preexisting energy could exist to give rise to a universe. I understand as a fundy atheist this may shake your faith!I understand as a fundy atheist this may shake your faith!
Some of us don't need to misuse science to maintain faith in one's beliefs. .
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostNo seer, youAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell not in Vilenkin's mind, in his mind the laws exist in the Platonic sense, independent of matter.
Platonic sense how Vilenkin uses it:
This is the view generally accepted by science that Natural Laws do not exist in time and space, and which are entirely non-physical and non-mental.Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-23-2017, 11:31 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostTrue, but selectively citing Vilenkin does not justify your world view. It is your your world view and not Vilenkin's.
To quote:
Question:Some people claim your work proves the existence of God, or at least of a divine moment of creation. What do you think?
Vilenkin:
I went to a meeting of some theologians and cosmologists. Basically, I realized these theologians have the same problem with God. What was He doing before He created the universe? Why did He suddenly decide to create the universe?
http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginningAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI selectively cited nothing Shuny, stop lying. I quoted his own words and linked the full context. Does it mean that he thinks therefore God created the universe - no, he made it clear that he had no opinion on that question.
To quote:
Platonic sense how Vilenkin uses it:
This is the view generally accepted by science that Natural Laws do not exist in time and space, and which are entirely non-physical and non-mental.
It is generally accepted by those here with a good background in science regardless of their belief, that your dishonestly selectively citing Vilenkin to justify your view of Creation 'exnhilo.'
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostPlatonic sense how Vilenkin uses it:
This is the view generally accepted by science that Natural Laws do not exist in time and space, and which are entirely non-physical and non-mental.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight Shuny, you just figuring this out? The laws of physics are non material. And these are the only things that exist prior to the creation of the universe and are the only things necessary for creation.Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-23-2017, 11:47 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSeer, this has been the view of science in modern history, Natural Laws are not things that exist. No scientists in any field nor discipline support Naturals Laws being considered as 'things.'Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostShuny, what are you talking about - 'things' is just a word.
The point remains, the laws are not physical
- and these laws are the only requirement for the creation of the universe according to Vilenkin. Matter, space or time are not required. Only the laws.
Nonetheless Vilenkin and Krause describe the Quantum nothing as something that the Natural Laws act on, and it is not equivalent to 'absolutely nothing' as cited. You are perpetually expressing your view and agenda,which is not what Vilenkin and all other scientists in the field believe.
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Originally posted by seer View PostTass, that is not the point, I have linked this twice or more now and you just refuse to accept it. The vacuum does not pre-exist the creation event, the vacuum comes from the creation event after the creation event, start at about 4:50, it is perfectly clear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSES...tbChannel=null
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
Vilenkin and Krause describe the Quantum nothing as something that the Natural Laws act on, and it is not equivalent to 'absolutely nothing' as cited. You are perpetually expressing your view and agenda,which is not what Vilenkin and all other scientists in the field believe.
And again, Vilenkin:
we were referring to here is the absence of matter, space and time. That is as close to nothing as you can get, but what is still required here is the laws of physics. So the laws of physics should still be there, and they are definitely not nothing. http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginningAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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