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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Tass, but it is ex nihilo - creation from nothing (literally nothing to use Vilenkin's words). Not that Vilenkin believes that God did it, he said he had no opinion on that subject. And Tass like it or not, all this is getting closer to the theological ex nihilo model. And it is not that I think Scripture even demands an ex nihilo event for our present universe.
Tass, you were caught with your pants down again. You misquoted the article, and left an important distinction out (creation from a condition where there was no pre-existing space). Just as you falsely accused me on the Vilenkin universe/multiverse question. That the multiverse, not just our universe, needs a beginning.
Krauss and Vilenkin propose that the Quantum nothing is something and describe it.
One might imagine that closed universes are popping out of nothing like bubbles in a glass of champagne, but this analogy would not be quite accurate. Bubbles pop out in liquid, but in the case of universes, there is no space out of which they might pop. A nucleated closed universe is all the space there is, aside from the disconnected spaces of other closed universes. Beyond it, there is no space, and no time.
What causes the universe to pop out of nothing? No cause is needed. If you have a radioactive atom, it will decay, and quantum mechanics gives the decay probability in a given interval of time, say, a minute. There is no reason why the atom decayed at this particular moment and not another. The process is completely random. No cause is needed for the quantum creation of the universe. [/cite]
Right, the universe pops out of a no space condition, and if there is no space there is no place for energy or matter to pre-exist. True nothingness.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
Right, the universe pops out of a no space condition, and if there is no space there is no place for energy or matter to pre-exist. True nothingness.
This basically a philosophical/Theological assertion of 'exnhilo' and incomplete. Your answer does not reflect what Vilenkin and Krauss propose concerning the nature of Quantum nothing
This basically a philosophical/Theological assertion of 'exnhilo' and incomplete. Your answer does not reflect what Vilenkin and Krauss propose concerning the nature of Quantum nothing
Nonsense, Vilenkin is claiming creation out of nothing "literally nothing" - the very definition of ex nihilo.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
This remains simply a philosophical/theological assertion of belief,and really relevant to what Krauss and Vilenkin propose
An assertion of what belief?
. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Nonsense, Vilenkin is claiming creation out of nothing "literally nothing" - the very definition of ex nihilo.
Basic deficiency in English reading skills.
The Beginning of the Universe by Alexander Vilenkin
Quantum creation is similar to quantum tunneling through energy barriers in quantum mechanics. An elegant mathematical description of this process can be given in terms of a Wick rotation. Time is expressed using imaginary numbers, introduced only for computational convenience. The distinction between the dimensions of time and space disappears. This description is very useful, since it provides a convenient way to determine tunneling probabilities. The most probable universes are the ones with the smallest initial size and the highest vacuum energy. Once a universe is formed, it immediately starts expanding due to the high energy of the vacuum.
This provides a beginning for the story of eternal inflation.
One might imagine that closed universes are popping out of nothing like bubbles in a glass of champagne, but this analogy would not be quite accurate. Bubbles pop out in liquid, but in the case of universes, there is no space out of which they might pop. A nucleated closed universe is all the space there is, aside from the disconnected spaces of other closed universes. Beyond it, there is no space, and no time.
What causes the universe to pop out of nothing? No cause is needed. If you have a radioactive atom, it will decay, and quantum mechanics gives the decay probability in a given interval of time, say, a minute. There is no reason why the atom decayed at this particular moment and not another. The process is completely random. No cause is needed for the quantum creation of the universe.
The Beginning of the Universe by Alexander Vilenkin
Quantum creation is similar to quantum tunneling through energy barriers in quantum mechanics. An elegant mathematical description of this process can be given in terms of a Wick rotation. Time is expressed using imaginary numbers, introduced only for computational convenience. The distinction between the dimensions of time and space disappears. This description is very useful, since it provides a convenient way to determine tunneling probabilities. The most probable universes are the ones with the smallest initial size and the highest vacuum energy. Once a universe is formed, it immediately starts expanding due to the high energy of the vacuum.
This provides a beginning for the story of eternal inflation.
One might imagine that closed universes are popping out of nothing like bubbles in a glass of champagne, but this analogy would not be quite accurate. Bubbles pop out in liquid, but in the case of universes, there is no space out of which they might pop. A nucleated closed universe is all the space there is, aside from the disconnected spaces of other closed universes. Beyond it, there is no space, and no time.
What causes the universe to pop out of nothing? No cause is needed. If you have a radioactive atom, it will decay, and quantum mechanics gives the decay probability in a given interval of time, say, a minute. There is no reason why the atom decayed at this particular moment and not another. The process is completely random. No cause is needed for the quantum creation of the universe.
What is your dishonest point? His theory has no preexisting matter or space or time. And if there is no space there is no place for preexisting energy, quantum or otherwise, to do anything. Certainly not create a universe.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
What is your dishonest point? His theory has no preexisting matter or space or time. And if there is no space there is no place for preexisting energy, quantum or otherwise, to do anything. Certainly not create a universe.
This is your belief, and not the view of Krauss nor Vilenkin.
The bold is not true of the Quantum world according to Krauss and Vilenkin.
Krauss and Vilenkin describe the Quantum nothing as something from which universes spontaneously result according to Natural Laws.
The concept of the sum of all energy equals zero dos not translate to no energy exists. The negative energy of Quantum gravity and the positive energy of mass and energy will have a sum equal to zero universally including the universe we live in. The energy of the Quantum nothing is potential energy that has been observed to give rise to virtual particles with a momentary existence that can be measured in terms of time and mass.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-21-2017, 08:53 AM.
This is your belief, and not the view of Krauss nor Vilenkin.
The bold is not true of the Quantum world according to Krauss and Vilenkin.
[cite=The Beginning of the Universe by Alexander Vilenkin]
Quantum creation is similar to quantum tunneling through energy barriers in quantum mechanics. An elegant mathematical description of this process can be given in terms of a Wick rotation. Time is expressed using imaginary numbers, introduced only for computational convenience. The distinction between the dimensions of time and space disappears. This description is very useful, since it provides a convenient way to determine tunneling probabilities. The most probable universes are the ones with the smallest initial size and the highest vacuum energy. Once a universe is formed, it immediately starts expanding due to the high energy of the vacuum.
Shuny, you are being dishonest again, I have proved time and time again that Vilenkin's theory only requires that the laws of physics (in the Platonic sense) preexist the creation of the universe.
Shuny, you are being dishonest again, I have proved time and time again that Vilenkin's theory only requires that the laws of physics (in the Platonic sense) preexist the creation of the universe.
There is no prior space, matter or time. Only the laws of physics. Now stop fudging to defend your religious agenda!
This is your belief, and not the view of Krauss nor Vilenkin.
The bold is not true of the Quantum world according to Krauss and Vilenkin.
Source: The Beginning of the Universe by Alexander Vilenkin
Quantum creation is similar to quantum tunneling through energy barriers in quantum mechanics. An elegant mathematical description of this process can be given in terms of a Wick rotation. Time is expressed using imaginary numbers, introduced only for computational convenience. The distinction between the dimensions of time and space disappears. This description is very useful, since it provides a convenient way to determine tunneling probabilities. The most probable universes are the ones with the smallest initial size and the highest vacuum energy. Once a universe is formed, it immediately starts expanding due to the high energy of the vacuum.
Actually I am not taking sides. All I am interested in here is that the views of Krauss and Vilenkin are honestly and corrected here.
Krauss and Vilenkin describe the Quantum nothing as something from which universes spontaneously result according to Natural Laws.
The concept of the sum of all energy equals zero dos not translate to no energy exists. The negative energy of Quantum gravity and the positive energy of mass and energy will have a sum equal to zero universally including the universe we live in. The energy of the Quantum nothing is potential energy that has been observed to give rise to virtual particles with a momentary existence that can be measured in terms of time and mass.
This view is not equivalent to 'exnhilo.' Vilenkin denies that they are equivalent.
Shuny, you are being dishonest again, I have proved time and time again that Vilenkin's theory only requires that the laws of physics (in the Platonic sense) preexist the creation of the universe.
There is no prior space, matter or time. Only the laws of physics. Now stop fudging to defend your religious agenda!
The laws of physics must have existed, even though there was no universe.
Right Shuny, the laws of physics ONLY preexisted the creation of the universe, there was NOTHING else or necessary as my link to Vilenkin proved. There is no preexisting energy because there was no "space" where they could exist. And the laws of physics are not physical things, they exist as Vilenkin says in the Platonic sense.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
Tass, you have been deeply dishonest in this thread twice, and in both cases I have proved you wrong. And now you are doing it again, Vilenkin's nothing only includes the laws of physics (which are not material things) there is no SPACE or TIME in his nothing so there is no place where some preexisting energy could exist to give rise to a universe. I understand as a fundy atheist this may shake your faith!
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
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