Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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The Identity of God.
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אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post... I do not believe it did. Please cite the specific place where it says this.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostA more explicit description of this church doctrine is provided here, with appropriate citations:
אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostYou are asking for me to cite where the document you provided says that it is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today". Thanks for this wonderfully amusing way to begin my day! I'm pretty sure that the document does not say anywhere that it is not an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today. But, just because it does not say it is not an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today does not mean that it is therefore an infallible document of the Roman Church today! The great majority of all documents that exist in the world, virtually all of them, those which do not expressly deny being current infallible documents of the Roman Church, are nonetheless not thereby to be considered current infallible documents of the Roman Church.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostYes. All of this is ultimately based on Lumen Gentium 14 and, as noted, the phrase has been significantly nuanced,
Your side stepping the clear and specific meaning Lumen Gentium 14. You have failed to cite anthing that would indicate that the 'nuanced' meaning would allow Salvation outside the Roman Church.
. . . addressing those within the Church. This section of the document is not to be misunderstood as attempting to express the current teaching of the Church on the relation to the People of God of Protestants, Jews, Muslims, nonreligious, and atheists, which is found in Lumen Gentium 15-16
My references are specific and unequivocal as to the fact that there is No Salvation Outside the Church. You are avoiding and trying to go around these references.Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-30-2014, 10:28 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostDisagree, there is no indication that the phrasr has been 'significantly' nuanced.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThere has been clarification and interpretation to consider specific grounds for salvation outside the One True Church, and some allowance of 'elements, attributes, and characteristics of Salvation in churches and religions outside the church, but nothing that would indicate that there is Salvation outside the One True Church.
Your side stepping the clear and specific meaning Lumen Gentium 14. You have failed to cite anthing that would indicate that the 'nuanced' meaning would allow Salvation outside the Roman Church.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostHere is where you are appealing to wishful thinking and a high fog index to support your argument without any specific reference. The reference is clear and specific. THERE IS NOT SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. Lumen Gentium 15-16 does not help your case. You have to cite your sources and explain your case based on these sources, not just make claims. These references you cite explain that there are elements, characteristics and attributes of Salvation in other churches and religions outside the One True. There is absolutely nothing in 15 and 16 that considers Salvation outside the Church.
My references are specific and unequivocal as to the fact that there is No Salvation Outside the Church. You are avoiding and trying to go around these references.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostExactly what claim are you claiming I made?By the way, I hope you now realize, even if you will not admit it, that the document you linked to is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today".
Originally posted by robrecht
You are asking for me to cite where the document you provided says that it is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today". Thanks for this wonderfully amusing way to begin my day! I'm pretty sure that the document does not say anywhere that it is not an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today. But, just because it does not say it is not an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today does not mean that it is therefore an infallible document of the Roman Church today! The great majority of all documents that exist in the world, virtually all of them, those which do not expressly deny being current infallible documents of the Roman Church, are nonetheless not thereby to be considered current infallible documents of the Roman Church.Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-30-2014, 04:47 PM.
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Originally posted by robrecht View Post"it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church."
Nonsense. I believe you are the one playing with words and not recognizing changes in nuance and interpretation. I have never denied or evaded the teaching of the Church in Lumen Gentium 14, but it should not be confused as addressing the same questions and people as are addressed in Lumen Gentium 15-16. Nor should one ignore the reinterpretation of the phrase as used in Lumen Gentium 14, recovering its original meaning, a reinterpretation that you want to minimize.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostCorrect, those ignorant of the One True Church of no fault of their own may be saved. Please give specific citations where others then these souls may be saved. Still waiting . . .
You have not as of yet cited anywhere in contemporary documents where those that have full knowledge of the Roman Church and maintain a heretical or schismatic choice are saved, i.e. Protestants and Muslims. I have given my citations and they are clear and specific. Still waiting . . .
Here is the status questionis as far as I see it:
So I asked you to quote your sources of current church teaching that these people, by far most of the people in the world, cannot be saved? You have continually failed to cite current Catholic teaching as saying that Protestants, let alone Jews, Muslims, members of other religions, and atheists must join the Catholic Church in order to be saved. Nor have you been able to cite current Catholic teaching as saying that the only allowance for salvation outside the church is limited to those who have no knowledge of the One True Church, and those below the age of consent or otherwise not able to comprehend God and the One True Church (ie, the mentally ill or incapacitated).
I cited for you the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, you cited a Wikipedia article (#20) and an anonymous document from the Our Lady of the Rosary Library (#s 29, 30, more on that later), a tract (#33), another Wikipedia article referencing statements from 1854 and 1863 (#35), and then finally got around to citing something from my link to Lumen Gentiumextra ecclesiam null salusLast edited by robrecht; 03-30-2014, 06:28 PM.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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More from Vatican II
You would be committing a mortal sin by deluding others that 'schism' with knowledge of ones obligation to the One True Church remaining outside the church is a mortal sinLast edited by shunyadragon; 03-30-2014, 05:25 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostHere
You responded:
You made a claim, and did not back it up. The above represents circular double talk.
The Accepted Infallible Document of the Church Today?
I asked you to quote your sources for this being current teaching, which you claimed to have already done. Eventually, in #s 29-30, you quoted your document entitled, of the Roman Church todayA Ray of Hope Before SundowningWith the Morning Comes No Dawnאָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMore from Vatican II
You would be committing a mortal sin by deluding others that 'schism' with knowledge of ones obligation to the One True Church remaining outside the church is a mortal sinאָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSeriously, Mr. StayCatholic Shuny? Are you going to try and make the case that Jews, Protestants, Muslims, members of other religions, and atheists all know and believe that the Catholic Church was founded by God as something necessary for salvation but nonetheless refuse to enter it?Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-30-2014, 09:33 PM.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostIt is still not clear what claim you are claiming I made. But here is my take on your attempts to avoid taking responsibility for your poor sourcing (see above)
The Accepted Infallible Document of the Church Today?
I asked you to quote your sources for this being current teaching, which you claimed to have already done. Eventually, in #s 29-30, you quoted your document entitled, of the Roman Church todayA Ray of Hope Before SundowningWith the Morning Comes No Dawn
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