The Identity of God.

[robrecht]

Source: Vatican II

Ecumenism and the Roman Church ...

© Copyright Original Source

Still no mention of those below the age of consent, those unable to comprehend God and the One True Church, ie, the mentally ill or incapacitated. Still no mention of the necessity of Protestants to convert to Catholicism in order to be saved. An expression of desire for Christian unity, sure.

[robrecht]

Basically the Roman Church wrote the document. do you doubt it's legitimacy as it states as an infallible document of the Roman Church? I may follow up and research this, but what would be the purpose?

You should know whom you are citing. It is not a source of current Catholic teaching.

[shunyadragon]

Concerning the mentally ill

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

Please quote where it says that Protestants must rejoin the Catholic Church in order to be saved? Please quote where it speaks about those below the age of consent, those unable to comprehend God and the One True Church, ie, the mentally ill or incapacitated?

Given those sources. Please read them. See the last post for more on the mentally ill.

[robrecht]

Concerning the mentally ill

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

© Copyright Original Source

Shuny this is about conditions which make mortal sin impossible. One pathological disorder could be mental illness, but these citations from 1850 and 1860 are not modern teaching about the necessity of Protestants to join the Catholic Church in order to be saved. Nor is it current teaching defining salvation for those of other religions or of no religion.

[shunyadragon]

You should know whom you are citing. It is not a source of current Catholic teaching.

Please provide a source that would support the claim that this not an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today. There is a long list of popes over the years that have confirmed this belief.

[robrecht]

Given those sources. Please read them. See the last post for more on the mentally ill.

Already read them and already responded to your post about conditions rendering mortal sin impossible. Your derogatory opinion of contemporary Catholic teaching has not been verified.

[robrecht]

Please provide a source that would support the claim that this not an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today. There is a long list of popes over the years that have confirmed this belief.

It is simply not a document of the Roman Catholic Church. It can be found on a few ultraconservative websites, but none that I have seen seem to give any source. It cites no statements more recent than 1953 so it does not even purport to be an expression of current teachings. If you want to claim that it is an accepted infallible document of the current Roman Catholic Church, I think it is up to you to support this claim. I am not sure I can prove a negative.

[shunyadragon]

Source: http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/02/vatican-recognizes-dogma-extra.html

The International Theological Commission of the Vatican in two of its position papers has referred to the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 of Pope Pius XII. The Letter mentions, the dogma and says it is infallible. Here is the text of the dogma.(1)

In this text of the dogma the Vatican is affirming the rigorist interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This was the literal interpretation of the popes, the Church Councils, Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14), Dominus Iesus 20, the Catechism of the Catholic Church 845, 846 etc. Pope Pius XII referred to the dogma as an infallible teaching.

However the ITC (2) assumes that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicit and known to us and so they believe it contradicts the thrice defined dogma.

As mentioned in an earlier post on this blog invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not exceptions to the dogma.

There can be no explicit, defacto, known cases of persons saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. So it is not an issue with respect to the dogma, unless, it is made an issue and made to appear as explicit and known.

© Copyright Original Source

See article for a list of recent popes that have confirmed the infallibility of this document including a correct reading of the Vatican II. This reference basically confirms everything I have cited.

[robrecht]

Source: http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/02/vatican-recognizes-dogma-extra.html

The International Theological Commission of the Vatican in two of its position papers has referred to the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 of Pope Pius XII. The Letter mentions, the dogma and says it is infallible. Here is the text of the dogma.(1)

In this text of the dogma the Vatican is affirming the rigorist interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This was the literal interpretation of the popes, the Church Councils, Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14), Dominus Iesus 20, the Catechism of the Catholic Church 845, 846 etc. Pope Pius XII referred to the dogma as an infallible teaching.

However the ITC (2) assumes that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicit and known to us and so they believe it contradicts the thrice defined dogma.

As mentioned in an earlier post on this blog invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not exceptions to the dogma.

There can be no explicit, defacto, known cases of persons saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. So it is not an issue with respect to the dogma, unless, it is made an issue and made to appear as explicit and known.

© Copyright Original Source

See article for a list of recent popes that have confirmed the infallibility of this document including a correct reading of the Vatican II. This reference basically confirms everything I have cited.

Seriously, a blog? Read the document cited there:

67. Vatican Council II makes its own the expression extra ecclesiam nulla salus. But in using it the council explicitly directs itself to Catholics and limits its validity to those who know the necessity of the Church for salvation. The council holds that the affirmation is based on the necessity of faith and of baptism affirmed by Christ (LG 14). In this way the council aligned itself in continuity with the teaching of Pius XII, but emphasized more clearly the original parenthentical character of this expression.

68. In contrast to Pius XII, the council refused to speak of a votum implicitum (implicit desire) and applied the concept of the votum only to the explicit desire of catechumens to belong to the Church (LG 14). With regard to non-Christians, it said that they are ordered in diverse ways to the people of God. In accord with the different ways with which the salvific will of God embraces non-Christians, the council distinguished four groups: first, Jews; second, Muslims; third, those who without fault are ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and do not know the Church but who search for God with a sincere heart and try to fulfill his will as known through conscience; fourth, those who without fault have not yet reached an express knowledge of God but who nonetheless try to lead a good life (LG 16).

69. The gifts which God offers all men for directing themselves to salvation are rooted, according to the council, in his universal salvific will (LG 2, 3, 26; AG 7). The fact that even non-Christians are ordered to the people of God is rooted in the fact that the universal call to salvation includes the vocation of all men to the catholic unity of the people of God (LG 13). The council holds that the close relationship of both vocations is rooted in the unique mediation of Christ, who in his body that is the Church makes himself present in our midst (LG 14).

70. Thus the original meaning is restored to the expression extra ecclesiam nulla salus, namely, that of exhorting the members of the Church to be faithful.31 Once this expression is integrated into the more universal extra Christum nulla salus, it is no longer in contradiction to the universal call of all men to salvation.

[shunyadragon]

Seriously, a blog? Read the document cited there:

Look at the blog carefully. Are you actually claiming this reference does note cite the The International Theological Commission of the Vatican in 2012 correctly? You need to better then this. The cite even lists the other popes that confirmed doctrine.

[robrecht]

Look at the blog carefully. Are you actually claiming this reference does note cite the The International Theological Commission of the Vatican in 2012 correctly? You need to better then this.

No, I'm trying to get you to actually read the document that it cites.

[shunyadragon]

No, I'm trying to get you to actually read the document that it cites.

I will give you a break and cite this from the document:

Source: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_cti_20120308_ladaria_en.html

It is precisely this universality that constitutes the Church as a universal sacrament of salvation (nn. 62-79). The question arises whether the church has significance only for its members or for everyone. Given the fact that the second answer is more relevant, the need of the Church for salvation is understood in two ways: the need to belong to her and the need of ministry of the Church at the service of the coming of the kingdom of God. Enlightened by the new perspectives offered by the Second Vatican Council, the old statement of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus illuminates the question of the affiliation to the Church as the body of Christ, the justification of all, and especially, the salvific mission of the Church in her threefold martyria, leitourgia and diakonia. In virtue of her witness, the Church proclaims the Good News to all. In her liturgy, the Church celebrates the paschal mystery and as such “fulfils her mission of priestly service in representing all humankind. In a way that, in accord with God’s will, it is efficacious for all men, it makes present the representation of Christ who "was made sin" for us (2 Cor 5:21) (n.77). In her diakonia of service of the neighbour she gives witness to the benevolent gift of God to men. It is clear that highlighting these aspects of the Church's function as a universal sacrament of salvation does not attempt to exhaust the complexity of this subject.

© Copyright Original Source

Actually this probably not the only citation of this, but these documents tend to long and wordy. More to come.

[shunyadragon]

I have no problem with this as still enforsing EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALLUS. It just gives some explanation of interpretation details. No fundamental changes in the basic doctrine. Note my citation from Vatican II.

67. Vatican Council II makes its own the expression extra ecclesiam nulla salus. But in using it the council explicitly directs itself to Catholics and limits its validity to those who know the necessity of the Church for salvation. The council holds that the affirmation is based on the necessity of faith and of baptism affirmed by Christ (LG 14). In this way the council aligned itself in continuity with the teaching of Pius XII, but emphasized more clearly the original parenthentical character of this expression.

68. In contrast to Pius XII, the council refused to speak of a votum implicitum (implicit desire) and applied the concept of the votum only to the explicit desire of catechumens to belong to the Church (LG 14). With regard to non-Christians, it said that they are ordered in diverse ways to the people of God. In accord with the different ways with which the salvific will of God embraces non-Christians, the council distinguished four groups: first, Jews; second, Muslims; third, those who without fault are ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and do not know the Church but who search for God with a sincere heart and try to fulfill his will as known through conscience; fourth, those who without fault have not yet reached an express knowledge of God but who nonetheless try to lead a good life (LG 16).
69. The gifts which God offers all men for directing themselves to salvation are rooted, according to the council, in his universal salvific will (LG 2, 3, 26; AG 7). The fact that even non-Christians are ordered to the people of God is rooted in the fact that the universal call to salvation includes the vocation of all men to the catholic unity of the people of God (LG 13). The council holds that the close relationship of both vocations is rooted in the unique mediation of Christ, who in his body that is the Church makes himself present in our midst (LG 14).
70. Thus the original meaning is restored to the expression extra ecclesiam nulla salus, namely, that of exhorting the members of the Church to be faithful.31 Once this expression is integrated into the more universal extra Christum nulla salus, it is no longer in contradiction to the universal call of all men to salvation.

As far as this goes the doctrine remains intact. The concept of the Universal call of all men to the One True Church is obviously not in contradiction with the doctrine.

[shunyadragon]

You should know whom you are citing. It is not a source of current Catholic teaching.

Some of my citations refer to current thinking of the Roman Church.