Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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The Identity of God.
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Last edited by robrecht; 03-29-2014, 09:04 PM.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMost definitely not abandoned the fact that EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church) is the current document of the Roman Church. When they stop teaching the doctrine in all the Catechisms around the world, you may have some basis for your claim.
EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church)
https://www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml
Do you now accept that this document (the one in your link immediately above this sentence) is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today"?Last edited by robrecht; 03-29-2014, 09:03 PM.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSeriously, again? This document, Frank, this one:
EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church)
https://www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml
Do you now accept that this document (the one in your link immediately above this sentence) is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today"?
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church) is the current Doctrine of the Roman Church. There have been more recent interpretation, but the Document remains the heart of doctrine taught in all the Catechisms used in the world.
It seems clear what happened. You came across what you thought was an official document of the church and you based your argument upon this misunderstanding.
Nonetheless it is good that you are now acknowledging above that there has been a more recent interpretation. This is progress over your earlier view that "the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church that has not changed and actually cannot be changed". As I have shown you, the original meaning of this phrase has been restored. That restored sense is what is used in the catechism.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI was editing and adding, and you missed this. As above it is adults that are responsible for their sins.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostOnce again, Frank, I am not speaking here of your misunderstanding of the current doctrine of the church, but whether or not you now accept the the fact that the document you linked to is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today"?
It seems clear what happened. You came across what you thought was an official document of the church and you based your argument upon this misunderstanding.
Nonetheless it is good that you are now acknowledging above that there has been a more recent interpretation. This is progress over your earlier view that "the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church that has not changed and actually cannot be changed". As I have shown you, the original meaning of this phrase has been restored. That restored sense is what is used in the catechism.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostOf course it is adults who are responsible for their sins. It is also adults who are able to be saved without converting to the Catholic faith or joining the Catholic Church.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe more recent interpretation only has a marginal effect on the meaning of Doctrine. Fundamentally the doctrine remains the foundation of the Roman Church and cannot be changed in its Fundamental meaning. The original meaning remains intact in all the catechisms around the world. 'THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH, unless one is ignorant of no fault of their own.
By the way, I hope you now realize, even if you will not admit it, that the document you linked to is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today".אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThen it is resolved those under the age of consent are saved according to the Catachism of the Roman Church. The age of consent in the Roman Church is the age of Confirmation.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThe catechism still speaks of 'the age of reason' and it is applied to both first reception of the Eucharist as well as Confirmation. You do realize that Protestants also practice baptism, right? And you left out the ancient maxim that we are bound by the sacraments, not God, hence the necessity of baptism was never properly seen as a limitation upon God's ability to save.
There is an important issue that you have failed to address. Yes, the Vatican II makes statements that some characteristics, elements and attributes Salvation may exist in churches and religions outside the One True Church, but nowhere does it say that those out side the One True Church may be saved. The only long standing exceptions remain salvation for those that are ignorant because of no fault of their own. The basic Doctrine of 'There is no Salvation outside the Church' still stands.
Where specifically does it say those outside the One True Church may be saved?
Please note, again . . .
Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-30-2014, 07:22 AM.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostIt has a much more than marginal effect on what you represented. Protestants do not have to convert to the Catholic faith and join the Catholic church in order to be saved.
Please note, again . . .
By the way, I hope you now realize, even if you will not admit it, that the document you linked to is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today".Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-30-2014, 06:54 AM.
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A more explicit description of this church doctrine is provided here, with appropriate citations:
Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-30-2014, 07:43 AM.
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