The Identity of God.

[robrecht]

You my friend are the one misrepresenting the Roman Church. Your ignoring also the current catechism.

I have nowhere misrepresented the current teaching of the Catholic church. And I did not ignore the current catechism, which as you may recall, I asked you to refer to. And when you quoted from it, I asked you here where in your quote it says anything about Protestants needing to convert to Catholicism to be saved? And where it interprets "those who, through no fault of their own" in terms of those below the age of consent, those unable to comprehend God and the One True Church, ie, the mentally ill or incapacitated?

[robrecht]

Most definitely not abandoned the fact that EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church) is the current document of the Roman Church. When they stop teaching the doctrine in all the Catechisms around the world, you may have some basis for your claim.

Seriously, again? This document, Frank, this one:

EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church)
https://www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml

Do you now accept that this document (the one in your link immediately above this sentence) is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today"?

[shunyadragon]

Question of age of concent:

Source: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/sacraments/baptism-infants-and-salvation/

Whether adults or infants, we cannot accept Christ or even salvation without God's grace. However as adults we can freely reject God's grace and salvation through sin. Baptism does not earn or guarantee our salvation. Even though eternal life in Christ Jesus (salvation) is a free gift, we can still earn death (damnation) through serious, willful sin (Rom 6:23; Heb 10:26-27; 1 John 5:16-17; Gal 5:19-21; 1 Cor 6:9-10).

© Copyright Original Source

[robrecht]

Question of age of concent:

Source: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/sacraments/baptism-infants-and-salvation/

Whether adults or infants, we cannot accept Christ or even salvation without God's grace. However as adults we can freely reject God's grace and salvation through sin. Baptism does not earn or guarantee our salvation. Even though eternal life in Christ Jesus (salvation) is a free gift, we can still earn death (damnation) through serious, willful sin (Rom 6:23; Heb 10:26-27; 1 John 5:16-17; Gal 5:19-21; 1 Cor 6:9-10).

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

Seriously, again? This document, Frank, this one:

EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church)
https://www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml

Do you now accept that this document (the one in your link immediately above this sentence) is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today"?

The EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church) is the current Doctrine of the Roman Church. There have been more recent interpretation, but the Document remains the heart of doctrine taught in all the Catechisms used in the world.

[shunyadragon]

I was editing and adding, and you missed this. As above it is adults that are responsible for their sins.

[robrecht]

The EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church) is the current Doctrine of the Roman Church. There have been more recent interpretation, but the Document remains the heart of doctrine taught in all the Catechisms used in the world.

Once again, Frank, I am not speaking here of your misunderstanding of the current doctrine of the church, but whether or not you now accept the the fact that the document you linked to is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today"?

It seems clear what happened. You came across what you thought was an official document of the church and you based your argument upon this misunderstanding.

Nonetheless it is good that you are now acknowledging above that there has been a more recent interpretation. This is progress over your earlier view that "the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church that has not changed and actually cannot be changed". As I have shown you, the original meaning of this phrase has been restored. That restored sense is what is used in the catechism.

[robrecht]

I was editing and adding, and you missed this. As above it is adults that are responsible for their sins.

Of course it is adults who are responsible for their sins. It is also adults who are able to be saved without converting to the Catholic faith or joining the Catholic Church.

[shunyadragon]

Once again, Frank, I am not speaking here of your misunderstanding of the current doctrine of the church, but whether or not you now accept the the fact that the document you linked to is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today"?

It seems clear what happened. You came across what you thought was an official document of the church and you based your argument upon this misunderstanding.

Nonetheless it is good that you are now acknowledging above that there has been a more recent interpretation. This is progress over your earlier view that "the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church that has not changed and actually cannot be changed". As I have shown you, the original meaning of this phrase has been restored. That restored sense is what is used in the catechism.

The more recent interpretation only has a marginal effect on the meaning of Doctrine. Fundamentally the doctrine remains the foundation of the Roman Church and cannot be changed in its Fundamental meaning. The original meaning remains intact in all the catechisms around the world. 'THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH, unless one is ignorant of no fault of their own.

[shunyadragon]

Of course it is adults who are responsible for their sins. It is also adults who are able to be saved without converting to the Catholic faith or joining the Catholic Church.

Then it is resolved those under the age of consent are saved according to the Catachism of the Roman Church. The age of consent in the Roman Church is the age of Confirmation.

[robrecht]

The more recent interpretation only has a marginal effect on the meaning of Doctrine. Fundamentally the doctrine remains the foundation of the Roman Church and cannot be changed in its Fundamental meaning. The original meaning remains intact in all the catechisms around the world. 'THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH, unless one is ignorant of no fault of their own.

It has a much more than marginal effect on what you represented. Protestants do not have to convert to the Catholic faith and join the Catholic church in order to be saved.

By the way, I hope you now realize, even if you will not admit it, that the document you linked to is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today".

[robrecht]

Then it is resolved those under the age of consent are saved according to the Catachism of the Roman Church. The age of consent in the Roman Church is the age of Confirmation.

The catechism still speaks of 'the age of reason' and it is applied to both first reception of the Eucharist as well as Confirmation. You do realize that Protestants also practice baptism, right? And you left out the ancient maxim that we are bound by the sacraments, not God, hence the necessity of baptism was never properly seen as a limitation upon God's ability to save.

[shunyadragon]

The catechism still speaks of 'the age of reason' and it is applied to both first reception of the Eucharist as well as Confirmation. You do realize that Protestants also practice baptism, right? And you left out the ancient maxim that we are bound by the sacraments, not God, hence the necessity of baptism was never properly seen as a limitation upon God's ability to save.

Yes, it speaks to an 'Age of Reason,' but that does not address the issue.

There is an important issue that you have failed to address. Yes, the Vatican II makes statements that some characteristics, elements and attributes Salvation may exist in churches and religions outside the One True Church, but nowhere does it say that those out side the One True Church may be saved. The only long standing exceptions remain salvation for those that are ignorant because of no fault of their own. The basic Doctrine of 'There is no Salvation outside the Church' still stands.

Where specifically does it say those outside the One True Church may be saved?

Please note, again . . .

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

It has a much more than marginal effect on what you represented. Protestants do not have to convert to the Catholic faith and join the Catholic church in order to be saved.

Where specifically does it say those outside the One True Church may be saved?

Please note, again . . .

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

© Copyright Original Source

By the way, I hope you now realize, even if you will not admit it, that the document you linked to is not "an accepted infallible document of the Roman Church today".

I do not believe it did. Please cite the specific place where it says this.

[shunyadragon]

A more explicit description of this church doctrine is provided here, with appropriate citations:

Source: How did Vatican II develop the teaching �No Salvation outside the Church�? Presentation by David Sch�tz

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it [LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5].

© Copyright Original Source