Originally posted by Adrift
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Non-theistic Moral Realism
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostGod's morality? We are able to comprehend God's will, and attributes through God's Spiritual Law and Teachings. Morality cannot describe God's nature from the human perspective. That is ridiculous.
Elsewherefully comprehend God's divine nature, we can comprehend at least to some degree the nature of the divine through his creation.
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, I don't think so. Why does the law of God need be objective to be immutable?
Originally posted by seer View PostHis law is grounded in His immutable nature, but God is the subject - hence subjective. Objective by definition means that which exist independently of the subject or viewer - but God's law does not exist independently of Him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostHow could it be otherwise?
Perhaps this discussion between Kevin Harris and Dr. Craig will put some light on where I'm coming from,Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI have seen this before. Perhaps you can define what you mean by objective (I gave my definition) and in what sense is God's law objective, objective to whom or what?
I'll grant that I may be observing God's objectivity incorrectly here, but I also believe it's incorrect to say that God's laws are subjective to him. Maybe it's best just to say as Craig does above, that God is consistent with his own nature, and leave it at that.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI mean objective as that which is "fixed" in God's permanent and perfect nature, without his personal influence or will conflicting with that divine nature, but in perfect harmony with it. I think that God is the exception to the rule that something that is objective must necessarily be outside of oneself. We understand things in this way because we are constantly at war with ourselves ("For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do"), and there does exist something beyond us that we must govern ourselves by, but for a perfect being like God, his nature and will are necessarily intrinsically tied. He could never do anything other than what was already in his perfectly divine nature. There is no room for subjectivity there.
I'll grant that I may be observing God's objectivity incorrectly here, but I also believe it's incorrect to say that God's laws are subjective to him. Maybe it's best just to say as Craig does above, that God is consistent with his own nature, and leave it at that.
Here is a definition of subjective:
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ).Last edited by seer; 03-02-2017, 12:29 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI agree with most of this, but like a said I don't believe that because God's law is subjective to Him, that that necessarily means that it is arbitrary - subjectivity does not necessarily mean arbitrary. I deny that it is arbitrary. And God's law, as far as I can tell, would not fall under the accepted definitions of objective. Immutable, non-arbitrary, yes, but objective - no. In any case God's law is universal, transcendent, authoritative and binding on a humankind.
Here is a definition of subjective:
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostBut God's moral laws do not simply exist in his mind. They exist in his eternal nature. To say that they exist in his mind implies that his moral laws could change if God's mind could change (and even if God's mind can't change, it rubs too close for comfort to this idea). This leads skeptics to say that God's laws are arbitrary. We don't want to say this, we want to say something much greater than this, that the good is indivisible from God's very being.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAgain, why is the survival of our species an objective moral good?
Again, that is subjective - why is the survival of the species an objective moral good?
God is God, not bad, not good, not subjective nor objective. Morality is an attribute of human nature by definition, and God does not have morals.
True, subjective does not mean necessarily arbitrary.Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-02-2017, 02:35 PM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostI agree with most of this, but like a said I don't believe that because God's law is subjective to Him, that that necessarily means that it is arbitrary - subjectivity does not necessarily mean arbitrary. I deny that it is arbitrary. And God's law, as far as I can tell, would not fall under the accepted definitions of objective. Immutable, non-arbitrary, yes, but objective - no. In any case God's law is universal, transcendent, authoritative and binding on a humankind.
Here is a definition of subjective: existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ).
Good definition; This is the reason your argument is 'subjective,' because it is not based on objective evidence and observations rather than to the object of thought. NMN is based on the objective evidence concerning the nature of morals and ethics in societies and cultures. There is no objective verifiable evidence for any other cause.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post. . . because by the 'objective verifiable evidence that it is good for the human species to survive. What is morally good contributes to the survival of the human species.
No it is not by definition. It is based on objective verifiable observations concerning what is necessary and good for humans to survive. Survival of the species and life is good.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostGood definition; This is the reason your argument is 'subjective,' because it is not based on objective evidence and observations rather than to the object of thought. NMN is based on the objective evidence concerning the nature of morals and ethics in societies and cultures. There is no objective verifiable evidence for any other cause.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat makes no sense Shuny, why is it good for the human species to survive? Was it an objective verifiable fact that it was good for the dinosaurs to survive? Says who?
Some species survive and some do not survive this is the nature of life and the continuation of the survival of life and species, which is naturally good. Is it objectively good that some species survive and some do not. Even the human species on earth will not likely survive in the long run, either from the Theistic nor Naturalist perspective.
Did nature have a plan or purpose for us?
Did nature have a teleology for humankind? Did it have a teleology for dinosaurs.
The work and paper of Weilenberg is only a philosophical argument for NMN, and in and of itself does not offer the whole argument, which as its foundation is the scientific argument for NMN. See the whole paper here:
http://www.apologeticsinthechurch.co...weilenberg.pdfLast edited by shunyadragon; 03-02-2017, 03:00 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostPlans are anthropomorphic considerations of philosophy and theology, and not considerations of nature as observed by science. The purpose of life, evolution, and the survival of the species as demonstrated by objective observation of the nature of life on earth, and it is, of course, good.
Yes, a utilitarian teleologyAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostFirst you say that nature did not have a plan for us (a teleology) then you turn around and says that nature did have a utilitarian teleology. Which is it?
God is the Creator, and not an engineer with plans.
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