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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Free Will and Determinism
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostYou're getting things mixed up. The first quote by me referred to arguments by Strawson and Van Inwagen that free will may be an incoherent idea. My links to those arguments were what you were responding to when you said that you don't accept them and think they imply that humans are automata . Now it seems you're responding to the issue of God's omniscience and how that impacts free will. That's a different matter. Let's pick one or the other.
So even if we accept the idea of divine foreknowledge, it's not apparent that it entails pre-determinism. But there's also the argument that God doesn't foreknow but timelessly knows. I don't accept God's omnisicience in this sense anyway. Even if God knows all that is, if the future is not yet, then the future would not be within God's certain knowledge in terms of particulars but maybe only in terms of probability.
The Baha'i Faith believes that the ultimate destiny of Creation including all possible worlds, universes and multi-verses is predetermined on the grand scale, but our existence is not clock work puppeteer physical existence, and everything is not predetermined.Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-06-2016, 09:57 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI disagree following thread and citations by bling, WLC and others it is clear that omniscience determinism is what they believe.
The majority of contemporary philosophers have, however, disputed the cogency of such reasoning. From the fact that God foreknows that I shall do x, it follows, not that I cannot do otherwise, but only that I shall not do otherwise. It remains within my power not to do x, but, given God's foreknowledge, we know that I shall not in fact exercise that power. Were I to do otherwise, then God would have known different future-tense propositions than He in fact knows.1 As for so-called "temporal necessity," this notion is notoriously difficult, and, if this is a legitimate kind of modality, it is not at all evident that God's foreknowledge of some future event is characterized by such necessity.2 This does not mean that it is within one's power to change the past. Rather it is to assert the truth of the counterfactuals:
3. If I were to do x, God would have foreknown that I would do x.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI was referring to the traditional view of omniscience believed by many Christians that God's knowledge is universal and all things past present and future, which I reject depicting God as a puppet master. There are potentially other views of omniscience I am willing to discuss.
Your view that this belief in omniscience was obsolete, because it was 'dealt with by Boethus over a millennia and half ago,' is an illusion, because it remains a prevalent belief among many Christians today.
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostI think you mis-read them. They don't propose that humans are mechanical automata. They only propose the idea of a self-caused cause as incoherent. I can see their point but am not entirely convinced. This is a framing problem. I think a lot of it has been mis-framed up til now.
Originally posted by blingIt does not contradict free will. As far as man is concerned we are moving along some linear time line, which God is on, but also everywhere else on that time line. From our perspective it might "appear" we are making the same choice we made before, so it is not free will, but we are actually make the choice one time.
You might think of it like this: God at the end of time sends back to Himself at the beginning of time all human free will choice made during man's time, so God knows every choice we "will" make during our life time because historically that is the choice we made of our own free will. Our free will choice in history limits our choices we "will" make, but we ourselves limited our choices.
Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/tachy...#ixzz4JQBgVjV3
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostBut here's what you wrote:
Sounds like you're saying that omniscience entails pre-determinism, even though you seem to reject the idea of omnisicience.
Your view that this belief in omniscience was obsolete, because it was 'dealt with by Boethus over a millennia and half ago,' is an illusion, because it remains a prevalent belief among many Christians today.
If you wish to discuss my view of the nature of God and the knowledge of God, that is a different story, and I would discuss that separately.Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-05-2016, 04:52 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt have been been dealt with by Boethus over a millennia and half ago, but this belief s a many headed mythical creature, actually believed by some here on Tweb.
This would be only one view of how 'substance dualism' is believed to play out in the human affairs of will. Though it is a very prevalent view of the omniscience of God by many Christians believe responding the question 'Does God really know all things?' There answer is yes, God knows all things, past, present and future even all possible free will decision. Of course, I consider this view ridiculous making humans little more than robotic automatons playing out a predetermined script of our lives making any 'gift of freedom' by God a meaningless game with God holding all the marbles.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThese arguments propose that humans are some sort of mechanical automatons. I do not consider them remotely convincing based on what read now nor in the past.
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostHow does omniscience entail pre-determinism or God being a puppeteer? Boethius already dealt with this over a millennia and a half ago!
Versions of the omniscience determinism beliefs vary, but many believe that on the surface we appear to have free-will, but in reality the course of all of existence is pre-determined.
I believe Sparko for one believes this, and others.Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-04-2016, 08:25 PM.
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostGalen Strawson's 'Basic Argument':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen_Strawson
Peter Inwagen has come up with another similar argument:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_van_Inwagen
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostWhat argument would you present that the concept of free will is incoherent.
Galen Strawson's 'Basic Argument':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen_Strawson
Peter Inwagen has come up with another similar argument:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_van_InwagenLast edited by Jim B.; 09-04-2016, 02:56 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostBoy I messed this one up, and thought a rewrite would be meaningful.
This would be only one view of how 'substance dualism' is believed to play out in the human affairs of will. Though it is a very prevalent view of the omniscience of God held by many Christians responding to the question 'Does God really know all things?' Their answer is yes, God knows all things, past, present and future even all possible free will decision. Of course, I consider this view ridiculous making humans little more than robotic automatons playing out a predetermined script of our lives making any 'gift of freedom' by God a meaningless game with God holding all the marbles, and the strings as a puppeteer.
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Originally posted by Crackerjack View PostI
Compatibilism doesn't entail that determinism is true. It only states a conditional: "If determinism is true, at least some agents have free will" without affirming its antecedent. Hell, it doesn't even comitt one to the belief that free will exist, for free will couldn't exist for reasons unrelated to determinism e.g. the concept of free will itself is incoherent.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe definition was, of course, too brief, but your response is not clear. I believe what those who support the 'libertarianianism' claim is our moral choices, choice of belief system, and ALL other choices of deliberation, that are not subject to direct physical determinism.
This would be only one view of how 'substance dualism' is believed to play out in the human affairs of will. Though it is a very prevalent view of the omniscience of God by many Christians believe responding the question 'Does God really know all things?' There answer is yes, God knows all things, past, present and future even all possible free will decision. Of course, I consider this view ridiculous making humans little more than robotic automatons playing out a predetermined script of our lives making any 'gift of freedom' by God a meaningless game with God holding all the marbles.
This would be only one view of how 'substance dualism' is believed to play out in the human affairs of will. Though it is a very prevalent view of the omniscience of God held by many Christians responding to the question 'Does God really know all things?' Their answer is yes, God knows all things, past, present and future even all possible free will decision. Of course, I consider this view ridiculous making humans little more than robotic automatons playing out a predetermined script of our lives making any 'gift of freedom' by God a meaningless game with God holding all the marbles, and the strings as a puppeteer.
Leave a comment:
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe definition was, of course, too brief, but your response is not clear. I believe what those who support the 'libertarianianism' claim is our moral choices, choice of belief system, and ALL other choices of deliberation, that are not subject to direct physical determinism.
This would be only one view of how 'substance dualism' is believed to play out in the human affairs of will. Though it is a very prevalent view of the omniscience of God by many Christians believe responding the question 'Does God really know all things?' There answer is yes, God knows all things, past, present and future even all possible free will decision. Of course, I consider this view ridiculous making humans little more than robotic automatons playing out a predetermined script of our lives making any 'gift of freedom' by God a meaningless game with God holding all the marbles.
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