Mind is not reduceable to brain

[firstfloor]

[firstfloor]

there is no scientific equipment that allows one to see the lack of a spirit. That assertion is made entirely by ruling it out dogmatically as a matt4er of ideology and them assuming the reduction of mind to brain function totally unwarranted. Notice in that psychology today article they didn't turn to any sort of data to prove the lack of a spirit, they argued for it by attacking the coherence of the concept. btw that means they using consciousness the mind and reason rather than science.

[Jim B.]

OK, but you don't hold to substance monism - correct?

Actually, I think that's the most likely one. Or something like it. Where do you come down on it?

[Jim B.]

Even if we grant that we are "made" by our body and brain, does that mean we are nothing other than our body and brain? There are several kinds of reductionism so we have to be careful about which kind we're talking about.

[seer]

Actually, I think that's the most likely one. Or something like it. Where do you come down on it?

I lean, as a Christian, towards the emergent dualism of William Hasker - or something there about...

[metacrock]

we don't know what it is like we don't know what energy is. spirit is mind. what mind is is the hard problem. I am equating spirit with mkjn.

[metacrock]

yes, but we don't

[JimL]

Before reading all of this you really should read my essay on Mind not reducible to brain to get a good background,



Empirical Data:


There is No Empirical Data that proves reducibilitySome empirical data supports claim:


Irreducibilityhttp://modernpsychologist.ca/the-min...-to-the-brain/http://newhumanist.org.uk/2172/neurotrashhttp://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=200

Meta, a question for you. Do you believe in evolution? I'm guessing that you do. If so, do you not include the mind in that category? Or do you see the mind as a wholley distinct entity from that of the brain?

[metacrock]

Meta, a question for you. Do you believe in evolution? I'm guessing that you do. If so, do you not include the mind in that category? Or do you see the mind as a wholley distinct entity from that of the brain?

Yes of course I believe in evolution. I do believe the mind is emergent from brain function but that doesn't mean it's reducible to it. It doesn't mean that mind has to cease when the brain does. God created universe that evolves and part of evolution includes emergent properties. Christian theology does not assert eternal nature of souls like Platonism. We have souls or spirits beginning to exist.

[JimL]

Yes of course I believe in evolution. I do believe the mind is emergent from brain function but that doesn't mean it's reducible to it. It doesn't mean that mind has to cease when the brain does. God created universe that evolves and part of evolution includes emergent properties. Christian theology does not assert eternal nature of souls like Platonism. We have souls or spirits beginning to exist.

So you believe your mind, soul or spirit, is an emergent entity and that once it emerges it exists of itself apart from the brain. How would you define this mind as a thing in itself once it emerges and separates itself from the brain?

[EvoUK]

[metacrock]

when I was in the coma I lost the faculty of being conscious. yet I was aware of a reality and lived in it as though in a waking life.I also think you are quite wrong about corresponding a bran function to a physical part as Talis says this is not something we can do.

[metacrock]

So you believe your mind, soul or spirit, is an emergent entity and that once it emerges it exists of itself apart from the brain. How would you define this mind as a thing in itself once it emerges and separates itself from the brain?

Not apart from the rain but perhaps survives they brain. The content of reason and the basis of conscious awareness are part of mind/spirit. Brain function is must the hardware. analogy: Brain function, chemistry, wiring, is like electrical wiring hooked to light switch, mind id like the light. The difference is the light stays on when the switch goes out.

analogies don't have to be 100% symmetrical.

[JimL]

Not apart from the rain but perhaps survives they brain. The content of reason and the basis of conscious awareness are part of mind/spirit.

So, you are saying that reason and awareness are a part of mind/spirit, but reason and awareness only describe what the mind does, not what it is. The physical brain can be described as embodying those same properties, so what I'm asking you is to describe the mind as a thing in itself. Does it take up space, does it have legnth, width, volume, etc etc, by what mechanism does it reason, in what sense is it conscious and of what is it conscious of?

Brain function is must the hardware. analogy: Brain function, chemistry, wiring, is like electrical wiring hooked to light switch, mind id like the light. The difference is the light stays on when the switch goes out.

analogies don't have to be 100% symmetrical.

But light doesn't do anything, so I don't think it a good analogy for describing the mind. You know what a better analogy for mind would be? The brain.

[JimL]

when I was in the coma I lost the faculty of being conscious. yet I was aware of a reality and lived in it as though in a waking life.I also think you are quite wrong about corresponding a bran function to a physical part as Talis says this is not something we can do.

When you are sleeping, you also lose the faculty of consciousness, yet you are aware of an alternate reality and live in it as though in a waking life. And you can believe that EvoUK and the science he is relating to you to be quite wrong, but the science, the empirical evidence, contradicts your belief.