Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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Hugh Hefner is now in hell
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostOk, so how would you answer the question, "Can those who have never heard the Gospel be saved?"
In my view, adopting an annihilationist view takes the big sting out of many of these questions. Nobody is going to be eternally burning in hell just because they didn't hear."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostAs far as I know, no, though it's God prerogative to offer more mercy.
In my view, adopting an annihilationist view takes the big sting out of many of these questions. Nobody is going to be eternally burning in hell just because they didn't hear.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYep, a totally agnostic view on the question is certainly an option. I was just curious where KingsGambit himself leaned on the question since he's expressed that he's not fond of either Molinist nor Inclusivist answers to it. Which is perfectly fine of course. I figured if he felt strongly enough to express dissatisfaction with those views, then perhaps he leaned towards another.
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostPersonally, I do not see the question as particularly important. After all, the situation is inapplicable to anyone who understands Christianity enough to formulate the question. The only people to whom the answer is actually practical, therefore, are those who would never ask it to begin with.
For the sake of playing devil's advocate, I could see some benefit to the speculation on Joseph: The assumption that he had died and the mentions of Mary later in the gospel accounts suggest that Jesus may have been fulfilling his familial duty by supporting Mary. This could provide a rejoinder to an earnest Christian who missed the point of Luke 14:26."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostI have. And it is not substantive as you are understanding it. Now do you deny that there is an uncaused existence?Your idea of God is a mythical one.As I had said, by me. As for that proverb, it is either true or it is not true. As I am sure you are familiar with the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority. That a claimed authority in and of itself does not make anything true.
What do you mean by the term "universe?"Our known existence as we know it. What would be evidence of it being infinite? It is an assertion that if it was infinite it would not be contingent on anything else. And based on measured observations it is finite with an apparent calculated age of 13.8 something billion years old.
https://phys.org/news/2015-03-univer...-infinite.html
Only uncaused existence is not contingent on anything else.
Obviously - not to you - you are not understanding the difference between "Uncaused Existence" and an "Uncaused Cause." Uncaused cause is contingent upon an uncaused existence. Existence and a cause are two different things.
Plato didn't know God either.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBy not sinning. Or in the case of the Hebrews, via the animal sacrifices God set up that pointed to the coming Sacrifice of the Messiah.Last edited by Tassman; 10-19-2017, 11:05 PM.
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostPersonally, I do not see the question as particularly important. After all, the situation is inapplicable to anyone who understands Christianity enough to formulate the question. The only people to whom the answer is actually practical, therefore, are those who would never ask it to begin with. As a result, I see it as a philosophical curiosity, where it could be interesting to know the answer, but is ultimately not particularly useful. It's ultimately like asking where Joseph was for most of the New Testament. The answer would be interesting, and there has been some speculation about it (I believe the most common belief is that he simply died sometime before Jesus's ministry began, not implausible for the time considering the shorter lifespans people led), but there is little practical benefit to knowing it outside of satisfying curiosity.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostHow did our pre-historic ancestors know about sin or animal sacrifices? I mean, from the first appearance of Homo sapiens in Africa c. 200,000 years ago to the invention of writing and the beginning of human history c. 5,500 years ago, there are a lot of people who had no knowledge of what God considered to be "sin". Were they all doomed to eternal punishment?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAgain, God doesn't owe anyone salvation. Anyone going to hell will be going because of their own sins. How many times should I repeat that? Go back and read my posts from the beginning to save me from having to type it again.Last edited by JimL; 10-20-2017, 08:41 PM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostHmm. Unlike the Joseph question, doing a little reading around, apparently the question concerning "what happens to those who have not heard" ranks as one of the most asked questions of pastors and apologists. I think it's a fine thing to question, and empathize with those who sincerely are curious about it (rather than just asking about it as a sort of "gotcha" for why they don't accept Christianity).
From a Protestant viewpoint, at least. A Catholic can just cite church authority and point to Catechism #847 as their answer to the question:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"
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Being proposed, does not answer the question as to what the evidence would be if it were infinite.
For one, your view of God is mythical. And so that substantive evidence of God is not even something you would even bother to consider - even if you knew of what would be that evidence.
Why would I believe you?
The totality of things and phenomena
Our current universe is estimated to be c. 13.8 billion years old. But whether or the greater cosmos is finite or infinite is currently an open question.
https://phys.org/news/2015-03-univer...-infinite.html
So?
Metaphysical arguments are subordinate to scientific facts. Quantum Mechanics result in a radical reshaping of the classical world-view of the ancients and invalidates metaphysical arguments based on it. This includes the Cosmological Argument, which you persist in referencing.
Plato knew many gods.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostWell, although people will throw various prooftexts around (Romans 2:14-16 seems to be a particular favorite), ultimately the Bible gives no explicit answer. As a result, I think any answer given (beyond simply a "they are judged fairly, but what that judging entails is unknown to us") is nothing more than speculation on the part of the one answering. Maybe plausible speculation. But speculation nevertheless.
From a Protestant viewpoint, at least. A Catholic can just cite church authority and point to Catechism #847 as their answer to the question:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"Last edited by Adrift; 10-21-2017, 12:37 PM.
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A comment regarding the judgment. Jesus said, "That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12;36-37.) He also had said, ". . . Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . ." (Matthew 18:3) ". . . not . . ." with the meaning of not in any way. Jesus explained to this to Nicodemus (John 3:3 . . . ). So those whose names are not kept in the book of life (Revelation 20:15; Revelation 3:5; 1 John 5:4, 12-13; John 20:31) will perish.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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