Pagan origins of Judaism

[metacrock]

For Abraham to recognize the authority and authenticity of a Canaanite priest-king is startling and has no parallel in biblical literature

.


Yes but that is not evidence of the untruth od Christianity. It's not the paganism of Melckizedek (sp) that is discussed but the knowledge of the true God in a Pagan culture.

[metacrock]

Can you provide titles? I'm fairly decently acquainted with most critical material, but if I'm missing something, I'd love to read it.



I profess agnosticism to JEDP. There are certainly sources behind the OT, but I question how much we can know about sources and whether or not the sources existed in the independent way that JEDP seems to indicate. I think the best possible alternative is R.N. Whybray's argument. The source-critical arguments don't really help here.



Well, Abraham (who lives around 1800 BC or so) goes and talks to the Philistines, who aren't in the area for another 900-1000 years. The people in the wilderness have pants (which are an invention of the Persian period- see S. David Sperling's rather entertaining article on this). The cities of the Exodus don't exist until the 1st millennium BC.

again that kind of anachronistic take on things highlights the poor nature of inerrancy not the untruth of Christianity.

[shunyadragon]

The cultural and linguistic origins of the Hebrew people as Canaanite pastoral hill tribes is only the beginning. The Creation story, and the flood narrative are also clearly derived and modified from pagan Babylonian myths and legends that evolved over a longer period of time before the Hebrew language existed.



Some argue dependence of the Genesis accounts on Babylonian myths and legends during the exile, where the names and God(s) were changed, but the stories remained intact. The PBS program on Noah and the flood supported the dependence of the Genesis accounts during the Babylonian exile period.

I support a more co-dependence with an evolving relationship going back to ~1400 BC paralleling the development of the Hebrew language and culture. I believe these myths and legends were regionally known in both Canaanite/Ugarite/Philistine cultures, Hebrew and Babylonian culture. The shared oral traditions may be older.

[metacrock]

the things you say here are obvious and well known, do you have a reason for saying them?

[shunyadragon]

the things you say here are obvious and well known, do you have a reason for saying them?

Pagan origins of Judaism, and the scripture. Judaism and therefore Christianty and scripture evolved from Paganism

[metacrock]

Pagan origins of Judaism, and the scripture. Judaism and therefore Christianty and scripture evolved from Paganism

so? I imagine that you take that's to be some kind of disproof of the Bible or Christianity, right"?

[shunyadragon]

so? I imagine that you take that's to be some kind of disproof of the Bible or Christianity, right"?

No, not disprove entirely, but the foundation of the doctrines and dogma relating to such beliefs as 'Original Sin' and the 'Fall,' are seriously brought to question based on ancient Pagan myths and legends that demonstrates that the Bible is not inspired Revelation as it is and as a whole. As in all the scripture of the world there is a distinct human element. This provides a foundation for the disproof of the egocentric exclusive claims of Christianity, as well as the other individual religions of the world. God's plan for humanity goes beyond the claims, doctrines and dogmas of individual religions, churches or the various sects.

My view is the religions of the world are in part based on the human view of God, Revelation, and the relationship to God. Progressive Revelation and the spiritual evolution of humanity is embedded in all the religions, and the minds of humanity.

[metacrock]

No, not disprove entirely, but the foundation of the doctrines and dogma relating to such beliefs as 'Original Sin' and the 'Fall,' are seriously brought to question based on ancient Pagan myths and legends that demonstrates that the Bible is not inspired Revelation as it is and as a whole. As in all the scripture of the world there is a distinct human element.

I don't think so. That humans exist in a problematic state between meaninglessness and immorality is phenomenological. That means we should expect to see traces of it in all faiths so having non Hebrew or "pagan" origins in Bible is not disproof. Mythology is not just a bunch of wild stories but is about the psyche and our place in the scheme of things. So we should expect to find echoes of the human problematic in ,mythology, and we do.

This provides a foundation for the disproof of the egocentric exclusive claims of Christianity, as well as the other individual religions of the world. God's plan for humanity goes beyond the claims, doctrines and dogmas of individual religions, churches or the various sects.

that is state3d explicitly in NT Rom 2:6-14. Acts 17, 19-29 (something like that)

My view is the religions of the world are in part based on the human view of God, Revelation, and the relationship to God. Progressive Revelation and the spiritual evolution of humanity is embedded in all the religions, and the minds of humanity.

ah, I agree! good job. ;-)

I don't see that as precluding the atonement or resurrection or deity of Christ.

[shunyadragon]

I don't think so. That humans exist in a problematic state between meaninglessness and immorality is phenomenological. That means we should expect to see traces of it in all faiths so having non Hebrew or "pagan" origins in Bible is not disproof. Mythology is not just a bunch of wild stories but is about the psyche and our place in the scheme of things. So we should expect to find echoes of the human problematic in ,mythology, and we do.

I did not say it was disprove of anything, I said seriously brings to question the foundation of these doctrines and dogmas as being in Divinely inspired scripture. We are not talking about traces. The claim is these writings are to a certain extent written inspired by God and a relatively literal history of the human relationship with God. We are talking about beliefs such as 'Original Sin' and the 'Fall' specifically based on the Genesis myth with pagan Babylonian origins.

. . . that is stated explicitly in NT Rom 2:6-14. Acts 17, 19-29 (something like that)

I do not find these references to be clearly relevant to the matter at hand.

I don't see that as precluding the atonement or resurrection or deity of Christ.

The atonement is at question. The Resurrection and Deity of Christ is a separate problematic issue.

[metacrock]

I did not say it was disprove of anything, I said seriously brings to question the foundation of these doctrines and dogmas as being in Divinely inspired scripture. We are not talking about traces. The claim is these writings are to a certain extent written inspired by God and a relatively literal history of the human relationship with God. We are talking about beliefs such as 'Original Sin' and the 'Fall' specifically based on the Genesis myth with pagan Babylonian origins.





I do not find these references to be clearly relevant to the matter at hand.



The atonement is at question. The Resurrection and Deity of Christ is a separate problematic issue.

yes but it's not a claim made in the docs. The documents themselves tell us Jesus is the revelation and that that is accessed in several ways not just through a particular set of documents. that's ideology.

Natural theology
experiential'
mystical
historical

allow me to suggest a book, Models of Devine revelation by Avery Dulles.