Is Creation ex nihilo

[arnoldo]

In this concept universes are created and die by natural causes and natural law within a greater Quantum timeless existence, the void in the Bible. This void or Quantum timelessness existence has always existed infinitely as a reflection of God's attributes with the potential to Create universes.

Ok, so the universe is not eternal.

I am not sure what would be 'necessary' here. From the human perspective, nothing is necessary concerning the nature of God and Creation,

Adler uses the term "necessary" in the philosphical sense in the following example.

For example, the statement, "the whole is greater than any of its parts" is a necessary truth: It cannot be otherwise; it is impossible to think of the whole as less than any of its parts.

Therefore, your statment that "universes are created and die by natural causes and natural law" indicates that the universe is not eternal/necessary.

[arnoldo]

I agree, and yes scripture in and of itself does not determine anything!

Including ?

[shunyadragon]

Ok, so the universe is not eternal.

Our particular universe is not eternal nor infinite. The greater Quantum cosmos would be infinite and timeless with God.

Adler uses the term "necessary" in the philosphical sense in the following example.

Therefore, your statment that "universes are created and die by natural causes and natural law" indicates that the universe is not eternal/necessary.

No our particular universe is not eternal/necessary.

[Adam]

I noticed one of the times. And you seemed to get mad when I asked a question or two about how your view might have differed from that of Origen. Merry Christmas!

Actually, I was referring to two times within that single post #5 on this thread.
Sorry about Origen, but since I have always considered myself an Origenist (and still do, what other alternative do I have), I can get testy.
Yes, Merry Christmas! (And yes, I do have family to have Christmas with, but I'm on the Left Coast and ours starts at 3 PM.)

[Adam]

THIS thread is NOT the same as the Christianity 201 thread. There Determinism, Compatibilsm, Free Will, Ex Nihilo
ASSUMES Creation IS ex nihilo, no argument....

Sorry about my confusion. The thread that's NOT the same is in Apologetics 301, where I could have participated but chose not to because creation ex nihilo was assumed. The Christianity 201 thread starts out the same as this current thread here (now in Apologetics 301) but focuses on whether or not the Bible teaches (or even permits) creation ex nihilo.

[robrecht]

Actually, I was referring to two times within that single post #5 on this thread.
Sorry about Origen, but since I have always considered myself an Origenist (and still do, what other alternative do I have), I can get testy.
Yes, Merry Christmas! (And yes, I do have family to have Christmas with, but I'm on the Left Coast and ours starts at 3 PM.)

I have no problem with Origenists, but perhaps we could revisit one of my earlier questions. Do you think that Origen does not accept creatio ex nihilo? If so, you have any specific references? I have seen that claim made by others, but the texts of Origen I've read show him as very clearly supporting creation ex nihilo.

[Jedidiah]

I solved the Problem of Evil (twice, two different ways) and nobody even notices. Yet everyone notices my "Dirty Dozen" list and craves to be on it.

You did not solve it at all.

[Adam]

I have no problem with Origenists, but perhaps we could revisit one of my earlier questions. Do you think that Origen does not accept creatio ex nihilo? If so, you have any specific references? I have seen that claim made by others, but the texts of Origen I've read show him as very clearly supporting creation ex nihilo.

Then you are right and I am wrong (unless the latter theodicy applies, that this is all play-acting.
Was Origen a philosophical Idealist? is the Universe sort of a dream?

[Truthseeker]

No. Scripture doesn't determine anything.

(you did say you wanted everyone...)

Merry Christmas!

Perhaps you can suggest a better word to go into the blank here: "Does Scripture _________ creation ex nihilo?"

I am not implying anything.

[robrecht]

Then you are right and I am wrong (unless the latter theodicy applies, that this is all play-acting.
Was Origen a philosophical Idealist? is the Universe sort of a dream?

He's a middle-Platonist like most of the early church fathers. Some would consider that to be similar to later idealists, or that idealists grew out of the Platonist tradition, but I think that is rather anachronistic.

[shunyadragon]

Including ?

Kind of off topic. I will respond here, but please do not pursue this line in this thread.

True, but it is odd in this thread you would refer to this, No scripture ever, in and of itself, determines anything in Creation, God's will does. The Will and Testament of Abdu'l-baha only expressed the wishes and council of Abdu'l-baha, and to some extent expresses the will of God for the future. It ended:

'This is my counsel and the commandment of God unto you. Well is it with them that act accordingly.'

[arnoldo]

Our particular universe is not eternal nor infinite. The greater Quantum cosmos would be infinite and timeless. . .

But not eternal.

[shunyadragon]

But not eternal.

I believe the Quantum zero-point cosmos is timeless by definition, as well as God is beyond time. The question of eternal nature of all of existence is moot point.

[robrecht]

I believe the Quantum zero-point cosmos is timeless by definition, as well as God is beyond time. The question of eternal nature of all of existence is moot point.

Yay! Shuny has finally learned the difference between 'moot' and 'mute'.

[Jesse]

THIS thread is NOT the same as the Christianity 201 thread. There it ASSUMES Creation IS ex nihilo, no argument. Maybe some participants violated this, but I avoided that thread for that reason (and that I'm not allowed in, even though I am a faithful Christian baptized as an adult--Roman Catholic to boot--in 1969), particularly because I have gotten into trouble already for arguing AGAINST creation ex nihilo (my faith label was involuntarily changed from "Christian" to "Unorthodox", even though I am NALC--middle-wing--Lutheran attending church every week and reciting the Nicene or Apostles each time).

I see total FUTILITY in Theodicy or trying to "solve" the "Problem of Evil" if conceding creation ex nihilo. It's patently obvious that in such a world God COULD HAVE created nicer, more obviously "fair" living conditions. Case closed.

If instead we picture a "universe" back to the "beginning" if such a thing can be conceived (I well remember as a boy of about 9 "tripping out" at the concept and becoming extremely fearful), would any or at any rate "OUR" God have existed fully the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Being we all (?) picture. Would not more likely "something" chaotic have "existed" that "evolved" into what we can really call God? If we at least entertain this idea, we might "picture" a state in which the Being(s) is (are) fluid in such a way that more then one "Will" subsists. Might such not develop into mutual hostility? Perhaps even such an opposition we even now in the West (and in Mahayana Buddhism) dogmatize as God vs. Satan. More than one essence? Dualism?
I propose just such a scenario. Our own world in which we casually think even in monotheistic religions of God vs. the Devil(s) may not represent current reality, but a still play-acted vision of what once was, billions of years ago, back before God won the battle against Satan. (Maybe not so long ago--the Hindu Mahabharata suggests a cosmic battle only thousands of years ago--again, maybe a recapitulation of events billions of years ago.)

There I said it. "Play-acting." That's my idea of several decades ago, probably the 1960's. I'm not aware of any literarature or person I've met who countenanced such a casual view of ultimate Reality. All suffering and pain vanishes as just the agreed-upon conditions in which we "all" struggle to keep "life" from being too boring. And saying that makes the prior paragraphs irrelevant--maybe God did create this all as a cosmic Shakespearean play we have all agreed to "act" within, all the pain and suffering being a means of exercising our minds and wills.

I am not sure what you're wanting my opinion on. The debate on whether God created the universe out of nothing or not is a philosophical one. I have not read enough (though I have read some) philosophical material on the subject to give an adequate opinion one way or the other. Where the Early Church stood on the subject is not hard to come by though. Within that range, I also have no opinion on Origenian theodicy or Chaos mythology.

I am sure that is not the answer you were looking for, but I just haven't felt any need to look into this subject that deeply to hold an opinion. But if it helps me get on the list I will say this: Your theodicy is silly. Now put me on the list.